Mystery Dagger

Ian · 16th May 2005, 04:29 AM

Lew is referring to the daggers produced for satanic cults that arose in France and Western Europe in the late 18th and early 19th C. in the aftermath of the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars. These knives are 10-15 inches in overall length, and typically have curved or straight double-edged blades with cast bronze hilts depicting skeletons, satyrs, snakes, goats, owls, or other satanic symbols. The sheath is usually metal.

This one, from 1884 (?), is later than most and might be a late 19th C. reproduction.

nechesh · 16th May 2005, 11:49 AM

I'm sorry Ian, but i am having trouble with your depiction of skeletons, satyrs, snakes, goats and owls as being satanic symbols. These are all symbols which have been used in magickal lodges and Wicca, but i can assure you there is nothing particularly satanic about them. As i mentioned, the skull and cross bones is a very well established masonic symbol. Some folks probably consider that a satanic organization, but personally i find that a bit of a stretch.

Ian · 16th May 2005, 12:41 PM

Nechesh:

My description was based on information contained in Levine, p. 477,* where he also shows a similar example, as well as previous discussion in this Forum of similar knives. Whether this knife is a satanic dagger, or from another cult or organization, is hard to say. I noted that the date, 1884, seemed later than usual for a dagger associated with a French satanic cult, as referred to by Lew, which may or may not indicate another source.

As a former Freemason, I am not familiar with Freemasonry using depictions of "Death," skeletons, or animal imagery on knives in their rituals. The square and compass, the letter "G," circles and triangles are much more common symbols in that society.

Based on the style and the depiction of the hilt, plus the general high quality of this knife, I'm inclined to agree with Lew until we can find a better source and reference.

Ian.

* Bernard Levine. Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values. Fifth edition. Krause Publications, Iola, WI. 2001.

Justin · 16th May 2005, 01:29 PM

I have agree that the cult dagger designation is tempting ,although the lack of cross guard is odd and I havent seen very many dirks or bowies for that matter with dates on them to the point where I think its usually not a great sign.

I think this may be a knife that was made in the wake of WW1 possibly to sell to soldiers on their way home,they did this in WW2 and I dont see why they wouldnt have for WW1.

Battara · 16th May 2005, 10:37 PM

I also agree with Ian. Satanic cults were in vogue during the French revolution and imployed such symbolism in the hilts and scabbards. I have seen a few now and although varied, the themes are the same. They were more ritual pieces than fighters.

tom hyle · 17th May 2005, 12:12 AM

Is that aluminum? Pewter?
The date could easily and most realically be part of a presentation inscription; fairly common.
I note a repeated theme of flame.
To a lot of traditional Christians, all other religions are Satanism....
But I'm not sure we're seeing any specifically Satanic imagery here; the themes are Death and Fire; various lines might be drawn, but it seems like an occult or ritual practice dagger from Europe.

16th May 2005, 04:29 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Satanic dagger Lew is referring to the daggers produced for satanic cults that arose in France and Western Europe in the late 18th and early 19th C. in the aftermath of the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars. These knives are 10-15 inches in overall length, and typically have curved or straight double-edged blades with cast bronze hilts depicting skeletons, satyrs, snakes, goats, owls, or other satanic symbols. The sheath is usually metal. This one, from 1884 (?), is later than most and might be a late 19th C. reproduction. Last edited by Ian; 17th May 2005 at 12:19 PM.

16th May 2005, 11:49 AM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I'm sorry Ian, but i am having trouble with your depiction of skeletons, satyrs, snakes, goats and owls as being satanic symbols. These are all symbols which have been used in magickal lodges and Wicca, but i can assure you there is nothing particularly satanic about them. As i mentioned, the skull and cross bones is a very well established masonic symbol. Some folks probably consider that a satanic organization, but personally i find that a bit of a stretch.

16th May 2005, 12:41 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Nechesh: My description was based on information contained in Levine, p. 477,* where he also shows a similar example, as well as previous discussion in this Forum of similar knives. Whether this knife is a satanic dagger, or from another cult or organization, is hard to say. I noted that the date, 1884, seemed later than usual for a dagger associated with a French satanic cult, as referred to by Lew, which may or may not indicate another source. As a former Freemason, I am not familiar with Freemasonry using depictions of "Death," skeletons, or animal imagery on knives in their rituals. The square and compass, the letter "G," circles and triangles are much more common symbols in that society. Based on the style and the depiction of the hilt, plus the general high quality of this knife, I'm inclined to agree with Lew until we can find a better source and reference. Ian. * Bernard Levine. Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values. Fifth edition. Krause Publications, Iola, WI. 2001.

16th May 2005, 01:29 PM	#4
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 178	I have agree that the cult dagger designation is tempting ,although the lack of cross guard is odd and I havent seen very many dirks or bowies for that matter with dates on them to the point where I think its usually not a great sign. I think this may be a knife that was made in the wake of WW1 possibly to sell to soldiers on their way home,they did this in WW2 and I dont see why they wouldnt have for WW1.

16th May 2005, 10:37 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I also agree with Ian. Satanic cults were in vogue during the French revolution and imployed such symbolism in the hilts and scabbards. I have seen a few now and although varied, the themes are the same. They were more ritual pieces than fighters.

17th May 2005, 12:12 AM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Is that aluminum? Pewter? The date could easily and most realically be part of a presentation inscription; fairly common. I note a repeated theme of flame. To a lot of traditional Christians, all other religions are Satanism.... But I'm not sure we're seeing any specifically Satanic imagery here; the themes are Death and Fire; various lines might be drawn, but it seems like an occult or ritual practice dagger from Europe.