Another stab at flyssa origins

Bryan.H · 24th October 2009, 02:48 AM

kronckew, your last post here reminded me of 'The Sinbad Voyage', by Tim Severin. The Islamic influence is spread along North Africa, The Horn of Africa, to Oman/ Yemen/ Saudi Arabia, along the maritime trading routes through to India, Sri Lanka and South east Asia. That cultural interconnection over centuries surely brought stylistic and technological influences from Islamic countries of the Middle east , through to South East asia, (along with some architectural forms, social customs, arabic language, etc etc). It's hardly suprising then that there are similarities in edged weapons where there has been cultural connections since the early middle ages.

fearn · 24th October 2009, 05:14 AM

Hi Bryan,

So you don't believe that the influence went the other way?

For all we know, the blade design came out of Mecca, and spread both ways via the Hadj.

Best,

F

kronckew · 26th October 2009, 07:50 AM

as there is evidence of far more extensive trade during the stone age than we had previously thought, i suspect that there was probably well established bi-directional trade routes between most established cultures millennia before islam. i remember the european clovis points found in north america and spain amongst others. this is of course disputed by the establishment...

fearn · 26th October 2009, 04:13 PM

Hi Kronckew,

I'm still not sure about the Clovis point connection. The problem there is that points with similar designs show up on opposite sides of the globe, with nothing in between, and different designs before and after. To me, that suggests that the craftsmen making them solved similar problems (i.e. mega-game hunting) the same way, rather than that the design was invented once and diffused out.

Using the same logic, I could point out that, in more modern times, Sardinian and Hmong kitchen knives are largely identical (and both look a little like a flyssa and a talibon, oddly

). *Obviously* this means that Hmong and Sardinians trade with each other. It could be that they didn't have a lot of money, and independently came up with the same do-it-all knife design so that they could do all their chores with a single knife.

Best,

F

kronckew · 27th October 2009, 10:15 AM

the sardinian-hmong connection is well known, hmong raiders settled in the mountains centuries ago after raiding as part of a berber contingent in the 8th century, meeting some local girls, and settling down to selling noodles. they were particularly good at raising spaghetti trees and selling the pasta seeds to the italians and the swiss...

the BBC did a documentary on the swiss spaghetti harvest of 1957. little known was that the seeds actually came from the hmong region of sardinia, their plant breeders are legendary in producing uniform lengths of spaghetti... hmong style knives

were quickly adopted as they were uniquely effective in cultivating the spaghetti plants.

Swiss spaghetti harvest 1957 <=linky to video

in the video they reference the dreaded spaghetti weevil, we see here a sardinian hmong child with one of the newly hatched weevils, which reach up to three feet in length in their late adult lives. spaghetti weevils may live up to 30 years, growing and moulting annually before reaching their full 3 ft. size, they are cooked and eaten like lobster and are a delicacy.

hmong swords are traditionally carried into the fields for dispatching these weevils, which thru their efforts are largely extinct.

a traditional hmong two-sword weevil killer dance ritually performed prior to entering the spaghetti orchards of sardinia..

fearn · 27th October 2009, 02:44 PM

...and with the spaghetti weevil becoming rare, the people had to switch to eating spiny lobster instead, thus founding the great tradition of Mediterranean pasta and seafood.

With the weevils gone, the Sardinians switched to making smaller knives, such as this folding version. Every once in a while, you find the big old knives sitting in a farmhouse back in the old spaghetti orchards.

kronckew · 27th October 2009, 05:38 PM

nice knife, by the way.

we now have put to rest that evil venetian propaganda that marco polo, centuries after the hmong resettlement, brought back noodles from the orient in his travels.

24th October 2009, 02:48 AM	#1
Bryan.H Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 51	Not so far fetched as it sounds! kronckew, your last post here reminded me of 'The Sinbad Voyage', by Tim Severin. The Islamic influence is spread along North Africa, The Horn of Africa, to Oman/ Yemen/ Saudi Arabia, along the maritime trading routes through to India, Sri Lanka and South east Asia. That cultural interconnection over centuries surely brought stylistic and technological influences from Islamic countries of the Middle east , through to South East asia, (along with some architectural forms, social customs, arabic language, etc etc). It's hardly suprising then that there are similarities in edged weapons where there has been cultural connections since the early middle ages.

26th October 2009, 04:13 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Kronckew, I'm still not sure about the Clovis point connection. The problem there is that points with similar designs show up on opposite sides of the globe, with nothing in between, and different designs before and after. To me, that suggests that the craftsmen making them solved similar problems (i.e. mega-game hunting) the same way, rather than that the design was invented once and diffused out. Using the same logic, I could point out that, in more modern times, Sardinian and Hmong kitchen knives are largely identical (and both look a little like a flyssa and a talibon, oddly). Obviously this means that Hmong and Sardinians trade with each other. It could be that they didn't have a lot of money, and independently came up with the same do-it-all knife design so that they could do all their chores with a single knife. Best, F

27th October 2009, 10:15 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,230	the sardinian-hmong connection is well known, hmong raiders settled in the mountains centuries ago after raiding as part of a berber contingent in the 8th century, meeting some local girls, and settling down to selling noodles. they were particularly good at raising spaghetti trees and selling the pasta seeds to the italians and the swiss... the BBC did a documentary on the swiss spaghetti harvest of 1957. little known was that the seeds actually came from the hmong region of sardinia, their plant breeders are legendary in producing uniform lengths of spaghetti... hmong style knives were quickly adopted as they were uniquely effective in cultivating the spaghetti plants. Swiss spaghetti harvest 1957 <=linky to video in the video they reference the dreaded spaghetti weevil, we see here a sardinian hmong child with one of the newly hatched weevils, which reach up to three feet in length in their late adult lives. spaghetti weevils may live up to 30 years, growing and moulting annually before reaching their full 3 ft. size, they are cooked and eaten like lobster and are a delicacy. hmong swords are traditionally carried into the fields for dispatching these weevils, which thru their efforts are largely extinct. a traditional hmong two-sword weevil killer dance ritually performed prior to entering the spaghetti orchards of sardinia.. Last edited by kronckew; 27th October 2009 at 10:49 AM.

27th October 2009, 02:44 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	...and with the spaghetti weevil becoming rare, the people had to switch to eating spiny lobster instead, thus founding the great tradition of Mediterranean pasta and seafood. With the weevils gone, the Sardinians switched to making smaller knives, such as this folding version. Every once in a while, you find the big old knives sitting in a farmhouse back in the old spaghetti orchards. Attached Images Last edited by fearn; 27th October 2009 at 02:54 PM.

24th October 2009, 05:14 AM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Bryan, So you don't believe that the influence went the other way? For all we know, the blade design came out of Mecca, and spread both ways via the Hadj. Best, F

26th October 2009, 07:50 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,230	as there is evidence of far more extensive trade during the stone age than we had previously thought, i suspect that there was probably well established bi-directional trade routes between most established cultures millennia before islam. i remember the european clovis points found in north america and spain amongst others. this is of course disputed by the establishment...

27th October 2009, 05:38 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,230	nice knife, by the way. we now have put to rest that evil venetian propaganda that marco polo, centuries after the hmong resettlement, brought back noodles from the orient in his travels.