English Short Sword

Dmitry · 19th October 2009, 11:38 PM

Customs can be excluded from the list, imho. From the 1820s onward, the British Customs officers swords followed the Royal Navy and Army patterns, to a degree, and used the same swords as the prison guards for their fighting cutlasses. In any case, they look nothing like this sword.

My feeling, by the look of it, this could be a civil guard/warden's piece.

Atlantia · 20th October 2009, 01:54 PM

Ok Gents,
Well I've made some calls.

Imperial war museum.
No luck, can't seem to get through to the right person so I've left a message.

Tower of London.
Managed to sweet talk them into letting me speak to the curator of armouries who deals with swords. Lovely lady, actualy happened to be looking through a book on yeomanry weapons and uniforms at the time!!
I've sent her the pictures and she will let us know if she can ID it or hopefully point us in the right direction if she cannot.
I contacted her because the Tower has one of the finest collections in the UK and its curators should be familiar with the regalia of London.

She has suggested from my telephone description that if she cannot help, we might try Westminster Palace, or the Kensington Palace court dress collection.

P.S.
A thought has just occured.
The chain on the portcillis is very short (in number of links)
Could this be an identifying factor?

Bryan.H · 20th October 2009, 02:19 PM

Here's one on the oldswords.com database...

The description given is:

"Item Description (Item Id: 103775)

Overall length 26.5 inches, and with a 20.25 inch blade, this is double edged and of shallow diamond section, it is etched with a panel with E.Woods & Son Bow St Covent Garden, the hilt has white metal mounts and the shell guard is cast with a crowned portcullis, the handle is covered with fish-skin and bound with wire, some areas of staining to the blade, otherwise good condition"

No reference to whom this sword was issued though.

Atlantia · 20th October 2009, 02:33 PM

Well, that proves one thing.
This is not a marriage or altered item.

Gotta go out now. Midwife appointment for my Mrs and me

Will report progress if any when I get back. (couple of hours)
In the meantime, does anyone want to try and track down an email address for the other collections suggested?

Gene

Atlantia · 20th October 2009, 06:33 PM

OK, well here are the relevant bits of the back and fourth conversations I've had with our kind curator at The Tower's Armoury today.
I did explain that the sword belonged to a friend of mine who wasn't in the UK, so I'm sure she expects me to be sharing the relevant pieces of the emails:

She at first drew a blank and passed it to a collegue to research.

'My colleague is pursuing it – we think Wallace and Wallace may have had one go through some years ago. Interesting that they are produced in both white and yellow metal. Blank on named firm – nothing in Swords for Sea Service vol II (I’m not entirely surprised; probably a retailer not a maker) or in my small index down here. Most of this sort of information should be at Leeds, if you ring the Library and ask them to look in the de Cosson index (Tel: 0113.220.1832), but probably requires a hike through the later 19th C directories.'

And lastly:

'Kent Arms sales sold one in the 1990s and id it as Customs House one – not sure, but you might ask Customs Museum at Liverpool. The one for sale was white metal too.

Other than that cannot think of many more avenues. Will let you know if aught more turns up.'

Something to digest!

Dmitry · 20th October 2009, 06:58 PM

There is no maker Woods & Son on Bow St, however there's a E. [Edmund] Wood, listed as a sword cutler, working on Bow St ca.1822-1836.
He later moved to 10 Great Wild St in Lincoln's Inn Fields, ca/1837-1840

Jim McDougall · 20th October 2009, 07:24 PM

Gentlemen, I have nothing to add at this point, but cannot resist admiring the fantastic teamwork, and brilliant detective work unfolding here!!!!
You guys are absolutely the best

and this is exactly what our forum is about.
Thank you all so much!

Jim

celtan · 20th October 2009, 08:13 PM

Wow, look all that went on while I was away! Guys, I'm humbled by the results of your joint effort. I'm also ashamed, I plumb forgot to check Old Sword's database.

I guess I deserve to be whipped with a wet noodle...

BTW, I read somewhere that there were no sword makers in Covent Garden, just retailers.

Compared to the sword at Old Swords, mine is almost in relic state. Very little remains of the etched panel, and the fish-skin grip is in poor condition.

Well, it is said that the thrill is in the hunt. Tally Ho, & Kudos to you all !

: )

M

20th October 2009, 02:19 PM	#3
Bryan.H Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 51	Identical sword, but still a mystery... Here's one on the oldswords.com database... The description given is: "Item Description (Item Id: 103775) Overall length 26.5 inches, and with a 20.25 inch blade, this is double edged and of shallow diamond section, it is etched with a panel with E.Woods & Son Bow St Covent Garden, the hilt has white metal mounts and the shell guard is cast with a crowned portcullis, the handle is covered with fish-skin and bound with wire, some areas of staining to the blade, otherwise good condition" No reference to whom this sword was issued though. Attached Images

19th October 2009, 11:38 PM	#1
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Customs can be excluded from the list, imho. From the 1820s onward, the British Customs officers swords followed the Royal Navy and Army patterns, to a degree, and used the same swords as the prison guards for their fighting cutlasses. In any case, they look nothing like this sword. My feeling, by the look of it, this could be a civil guard/warden's piece.

20th October 2009, 01:54 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Ok Gents, Well I've made some calls. Imperial war museum. No luck, can't seem to get through to the right person so I've left a message. Tower of London. Managed to sweet talk them into letting me speak to the curator of armouries who deals with swords. Lovely lady, actualy happened to be looking through a book on yeomanry weapons and uniforms at the time!! I've sent her the pictures and she will let us know if she can ID it or hopefully point us in the right direction if she cannot. I contacted her because the Tower has one of the finest collections in the UK and its curators should be familiar with the regalia of London. She has suggested from my telephone description that if she cannot help, we might try Westminster Palace, or the Kensington Palace court dress collection. P.S. A thought has just occured. The chain on the portcillis is very short (in number of links) Could this be an identifying factor?

20th October 2009, 02:33 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Well, that proves one thing. This is not a marriage or altered item. Gotta go out now. Midwife appointment for my Mrs and me Will report progress if any when I get back. (couple of hours) In the meantime, does anyone want to try and track down an email address for the other collections suggested? Gene

20th October 2009, 06:33 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	OK, well here are the relevant bits of the back and fourth conversations I've had with our kind curator at The Tower's Armoury today. I did explain that the sword belonged to a friend of mine who wasn't in the UK, so I'm sure she expects me to be sharing the relevant pieces of the emails: She at first drew a blank and passed it to a collegue to research. 'My colleague is pursuing it – we think Wallace and Wallace may have had one go through some years ago. Interesting that they are produced in both white and yellow metal. Blank on named firm – nothing in Swords for Sea Service vol II (I’m not entirely surprised; probably a retailer not a maker) or in my small index down here. Most of this sort of information should be at Leeds, if you ring the Library and ask them to look in the de Cosson index (Tel: 0113.220.1832), but probably requires a hike through the later 19th C directories.' And lastly: 'Kent Arms sales sold one in the 1990s and id it as Customs House one – not sure, but you might ask Customs Museum at Liverpool. The one for sale was white metal too. Other than that cannot think of many more avenues. Will let you know if aught more turns up.' Something to digest!

20th October 2009, 06:58 PM	#6
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	There is no maker Woods & Son on Bow St, however there's a E. [Edmund] Wood, listed as a sword cutler, working on Bow St ca.1822-1836. He later moved to 10 Great Wild St in Lincoln's Inn Fields, ca/1837-1840

20th October 2009, 07:24 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Gentlemen, I have nothing to add at this point, but cannot resist admiring the fantastic teamwork, and brilliant detective work unfolding here!!!! You guys are absolutely the best and this is exactly what our forum is about. Thank you all so much! Jim

20th October 2009, 08:13 PM	#8
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Wow, look all that went on while I was away! Guys, I'm humbled by the results of your joint effort. I'm also ashamed, I plumb forgot to check Old Sword's database. I guess I deserve to be whipped with a wet noodle... BTW, I read somewhere that there were no sword makers in Covent Garden, just retailers. Compared to the sword at Old Swords, mine is almost in relic state. Very little remains of the etched panel, and the fish-skin grip is in poor condition. Well, it is said that the thrill is in the hunt. Tally Ho, & Kudos to you all ! : ) M