An Extremely Rare North Italian Arquebusier's Auxiliary Armament Saber, ca. 1510-15

Dmitry · 19th October 2009, 05:37 PM

Hello,
The term you're using - Arquebusier's saber, why do you think this weapon was carried by an arquebusier?

Thanks!

Matchlock · 20th October 2009, 05:41 PM

Hi Cornelis and Samuel,

Thanks for ensuring me that the thing is definitely a saber.

Ariel, I do consent that what I, for reasons of historical art terminnology, have come to call the late Gothic trefoliate pommel can certainly be seen as a formal predecessor of the 'cat's head' shapes on later schiavonas although we must not forget the vast variety of Late Gothic and Early Renaissance stylistic elements many of which were still 'alive' one or two centuries later, especially in Italy.

To me, the significant square pommels of the ca. 1450 to 1500 Venetian swords seem to be closer relatives to the later schiavona pommels.

Also, as to the discussion of the relatively refined hilt on my saber and its consequent dating I enclose more North Italian, mostly Venetian, sword hilts, all of late 15th to early 16th c. date (the one on b/w ill. 45 with a later ca. 1550 guard but retaining its trefoliate pommel and grip of ca. 1500), two of them featuring a horizontal side ring, all preserved at the Palazzo Ducale, Venice.
So when I sort of open the dating range of my saber to 'ca. 1520-5', do we have a deal then?

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 20th October 2009, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Hello,
The term you're using - Arquebusier's saber, why do you think this weapon was carried by an arquebusier?

Thanks!

Hi Dmitry,

I think it was most of all the relatively light workmanship (which is far from the solidity of a Katzbalger) and the missing of a pronounced yelman on the blade that convinced me that this was not an item of primary but rather of auxiliary armament, meaning that the main weapan for this landsknecht to rely on must have been an arquebus.

Please note the small swords resp. sabers of the arquebusiers in Ruprecht Heller's painting The Battle of Pavia, National Museum Stockholm (dated 1529, the battle took place in 1525) with their developed hilts! (s images attached). These hilts are very close to that on my saber while the pommels in this painting are what we would normally assign to the 1550's-60's!

Best,
Michael

cornelistromp · 21st October 2009, 08:08 AM

Hi Michael,

the sword hilts in the painting look a bit like this one.

Best regards

cornelistromp · 21st October 2009, 08:34 AM

Ewart Oakeshott states that the early venetian but also the later form of landknechtssword (later forms are developed landsknecht hilts with a half developed basket or a full basket, in the picture H en J) are both ancestors of the Schiavona hilt.

picture 2 quote from Ewart Oakeshott European arms and armour;
"it is generally held that some of the late form of landknecht sword hilts had a lot to do with the development of the schiavona too".regards from Holland

Matchlock · 21st October 2009, 02:03 PM

Thank you so much, Cornelis,

I am much flattered (and a bit flattened as well

) to hear that Ewart Oakeshott interpreted the stylistic late Gothic and Early Renaissance developments quite the way I have come to do by experience that includes, besides weapons, all kinds of work of art.

How would you date the light Italian sword the hilt of which resembles those illustrated on the Pavia painting?

Best wishes,
Michael

cornelistromp · 21st October 2009, 03:16 PM

How would you date the light Italian sword the hilt of which resembles those illustrated on the Pavia painting?

Hi Michael,

Do you mean the sword in my collection, it is not so light piece

I would date it around 1560-1570, but this one is not so easy

the shell shaped pommel with pierced holes appeared already at the end of the 15thC.
the simple hilt form with ring guard and knuckle guard with disk shape terminals
like this are seen around second quarter of the 16thC on-wards. the Counter guard with this type of "hook" and thumb guard can also be seen on many later 16thC swords (Fe Tussacks) and the same striped decoration can be found on a 1510 sword hilt published by Oakeshott in European A&A.

best regards from Holland

So what do you think Michael

Matchlock · 21st October 2009, 03:37 PM

More questions than replies, that's the way it's gotta be in schlolarly discussions ...

The 1560's would, in my opinion, mark the upper limit for your item but let me ask a friend of mine who has specialized in this field amost all of his life.

Be patient.

Best regrads as always,
Michael

20th October 2009, 05:41 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cornelis and Samuel, Thanks for ensuring me that the thing is definitely a saber. Ariel, I do consent that what I, for reasons of historical art terminnology, have come to call the late Gothic trefoliate pommel can certainly be seen as a formal predecessor of the 'cat's head' shapes on later schiavonas although we must not forget the vast variety of Late Gothic and Early Renaissance stylistic elements many of which were still 'alive' one or two centuries later, especially in Italy. To me, the significant square pommels of the ca. 1450 to 1500 Venetian swords seem to be closer relatives to the later schiavona pommels. Also, as to the discussion of the relatively refined hilt on my saber and its consequent dating I enclose more North Italian, mostly Venetian, sword hilts, all of late 15th to early 16th c. date (the one on b/w ill. 45 with a later ca. 1550 guard but retaining its trefoliate pommel and grip of ca. 1500), two of them featuring a horizontal side ring, all preserved at the Palazzo Ducale, Venice. So when I sort of open the dating range of my saber to 'ca. 1520-5', do we have a deal then? Best, Michael Attached Images

21st October 2009, 08:08 AM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Michael, the sword hilts in the painting look a bit like this one. Best regards Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 21st October 2009 at 08:35 AM.

21st October 2009, 08:34 AM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	late landsknechtswords ancestors of the schiavona? Ewart Oakeshott states that the early venetian but also the later form of landknechtssword (later forms are developed landsknecht hilts with a half developed basket or a full basket, in the picture H en J) are both ancestors of the Schiavona hilt. picture 2 quote from Ewart Oakeshott European arms and armour; "it is generally held that some of the late form of landknecht sword hilts had a lot to do with the development of the schiavona too".regards from Holland Attached Images

21st October 2009, 03:16 PM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	How would you date the light Italian sword the hilt of which resembles those illustrated on the Pavia painting? Hi Michael, Do you mean the sword in my collection, it is not so light piece I would date it around 1560-1570, but this one is not so easy the shell shaped pommel with pierced holes appeared already at the end of the 15thC. the simple hilt form with ring guard and knuckle guard with disk shape terminals like this are seen around second quarter of the 16thC on-wards. the Counter guard with this type of "hook" and thumb guard can also be seen on many later 16thC swords (Fe Tussacks) and the same striped decoration can be found on a 1510 sword hilt published by Oakeshott in European A&A. best regards from Holland So what do you think Michael Last edited by cornelistromp; 21st October 2009 at 06:35 PM.

19th October 2009, 05:37 PM	#1
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Hello, The term you're using - Arquebusier's saber, why do you think this weapon was carried by an arquebusier? Thanks!

21st October 2009, 02:03 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you so much, Cornelis, I am much flattered (and a bit flattened as well ) to hear that Ewart Oakeshott interpreted the stylistic late Gothic and Early Renaissance developments quite the way I have come to do by experience that includes, besides weapons, all kinds of work of art. How would you date the light Italian sword the hilt of which resembles those illustrated on the Pavia painting? Best wishes, Michael

21st October 2009, 03:37 PM	#8
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	More questions than replies, that's the way it's gotta be in schlolarly discussions ... The 1560's would, in my opinion, mark the upper limit for your item but let me ask a friend of mine who has specialized in this field amost all of his life. Be patient. Best regrads as always, Michael