Another What Have We Here

tom hyle · 15th May 2005, 06:40 PM

The long ferule does look like a feature common on Arabian (per se) saifs, but are those not usually wire wraps? And do they not ordinarily have narrower grips? Does one see iron tang bands and overlays in Arabia? I think only brass or silver are usual? They are seen in iron in both Afghanistan and Caucases. Also, I have seen a similar feature at least once on an Afghan sword. The pommel shape is one I see a lot on knives from E European Moslems, but I have indeed also seen a similar shape on a type of variant kodme or flyssa. The shape as I've seen it on them is more angular, but otherwise similar, but this is identical to the European ones to my memory. It is possible it is a N African sword, or even Arabian, though that seems "off" to me; just not that it is a "nimcha", or, I think, any part of one. I still think it is E European etc. I do not see any indication that the grip is reworked. I think....?.....I don't know if the guards like this are trackable for region (though I'm trying to find out). If it had super skinny lagnets with parrabolic sides that'd be pretty Arabian. If it had diamond-section ridge lines to lagnets and quillons, that'd be pretty African. But this particular variety of the cross-shaped guard with shortish triangular lagnets seems fairly region-neutral for any markers I know what they mean; not to say it can't be IDd by the guard; but it's not helping me much. The square quillons may indeed be a mark for Arabia; I'd like to hear what Radu and Wolviex think of that though; they both seem to have seen a lot of European ones....

wolviex · 15th May 2005, 08:15 PM

I think that Arabian plot could be correct while I have many problems to qualify this sabre as Turkish or Polish. I was trying to find some features which are characteristic for these countries, but I didn't thought about other ones like Arabia - and this was my fault. The problem is that quillons, rivets, this metal aplication around handle - doesn't look familiar to me, only with small exception. Now after RSword's and Ariel's arguments, which I didn't thought about earlier, I'm ready to exlude any Polish origin. Unfortunately Tom, quillons as I said it, doesn't look familiar to those I saw in our collection, except this "triangular langnets" which happen indeed in Polish, Turkish and I belive, almost every Karabela sabre.

Ragards!

tom hyle · 15th May 2005, 09:42 PM

Yeah, they seem widespread, the triangular lagnets, and they may well occur in Arabia, too. The iron feruling piece is I think maybe a bit unusual for anywhere, though it sounds like several of us have seen somewhat similar things from a variety of regions....and if a pommel shape is in Moslem E Europe, and in N Africa, it wouldn't be surprising to see it at least once in a while in Arabia....I've recently become very curious about regional ID and origin for this style guard; I have no big knowledge; I have to study a lot more examples, obviously. I think it will be an important regional tracker if we figure it out, and it may be very simple or very hard; for me it is just an idea, and I may pursue it with a variety of vigor; I doubt much will occur soon. But it is on my mind, so I suspect I will have my eye on that particular feature of swords I see for a while.

ham · 17th May 2005, 06:19 PM

Gentlemen,

Oddly, there are two other examples of sabres of this type on eBay at the moment:

As forum members noted above this form is Arab, though its range is considerable-- have seen examples from Jerusalem to Jidda. They appear to be local copies of Ottoman swords, not surprising since these regions comprised an important part of the Ottoman Provinces for several centuries. They are usually identifiable by a less defined pommel-crest than the Ottoman, simpler, more rustic guard (as noted above) and characteristic Arab engraved motifs on the mounts. Too, blades tend to be European or in European style, on this type. Later examples have more aesthetic guards but the quillons tend to be quite short, and are generally chained to the pommel on one side, as the first eBay example shows. There is good example in STARA BRON by Dr. Z. Zygulski, p. 254, pl. 259. It is described as an Arab sabre of the 18th century.
The sword referred to in the opening thread showed iron mounts simply engraved, with a toothed edge to the ferrule and appliques; this is highly typical of matchlock muskets from Hyderabad which had a large Arab population for many centuries; more importantly, Hyderabad maintained trade ties with the Arabian Peninsula almost continuously to the late 19th century. Comparison with known Hyderabad sabres indicates close similarities in blade-type as well.

Sincerely,

Ham

Ian · 17th May 2005, 06:44 PM

Ham:

We have a forum policy to not discuss current items on eBay or other auction sites. The links have been deleted from your post. We can discuss after the auctions are over.

Please read PLEASE READ BEFORE YOU POST: FORUM RULES, GUIDELINES AND FEATURES

I have sent you a PM.

Ian.

17th May 2005, 06:19 PM	#4
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, Oddly, there are two other examples of sabres of this type on eBay at the moment: As forum members noted above this form is Arab, though its range is considerable-- have seen examples from Jerusalem to Jidda. They appear to be local copies of Ottoman swords, not surprising since these regions comprised an important part of the Ottoman Provinces for several centuries. They are usually identifiable by a less defined pommel-crest than the Ottoman, simpler, more rustic guard (as noted above) and characteristic Arab engraved motifs on the mounts. Too, blades tend to be European or in European style, on this type. Later examples have more aesthetic guards but the quillons tend to be quite short, and are generally chained to the pommel on one side, as the first eBay example shows. There is good example in STARA BRON by Dr. Z. Zygulski, p. 254, pl. 259. It is described as an Arab sabre of the 18th century. The sword referred to in the opening thread showed iron mounts simply engraved, with a toothed edge to the ferrule and appliques; this is highly typical of matchlock muskets from Hyderabad which had a large Arab population for many centuries; more importantly, Hyderabad maintained trade ties with the Arabian Peninsula almost continuously to the late 19th century. Comparison with known Hyderabad sabres indicates close similarities in blade-type as well. Sincerely, Ham Last edited by Ian; 17th May 2005 at 06:46 PM. Reason: Delete links and identifiers for current auctions

17th May 2005, 06:44 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Current auctions Ham: We have a forum policy to not discuss current items on eBay or other auction sites. The links have been deleted from your post. We can discuss after the auctions are over. Please read PLEASE READ BEFORE YOU POST: FORUM RULES, GUIDELINES AND FEATURES I have sent you a PM. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 17th May 2005 at 07:11 PM.

15th May 2005, 06:40 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The long ferule does look like a feature common on Arabian (per se) saifs, but are those not usually wire wraps? And do they not ordinarily have narrower grips? Does one see iron tang bands and overlays in Arabia? I think only brass or silver are usual? They are seen in iron in both Afghanistan and Caucases. Also, I have seen a similar feature at least once on an Afghan sword. The pommel shape is one I see a lot on knives from E European Moslems, but I have indeed also seen a similar shape on a type of variant kodme or flyssa. The shape as I've seen it on them is more angular, but otherwise similar, but this is identical to the European ones to my memory. It is possible it is a N African sword, or even Arabian, though that seems "off" to me; just not that it is a "nimcha", or, I think, any part of one. I still think it is E European etc. I do not see any indication that the grip is reworked. I think....?.....I don't know if the guards like this are trackable for region (though I'm trying to find out). If it had super skinny lagnets with parrabolic sides that'd be pretty Arabian. If it had diamond-section ridge lines to lagnets and quillons, that'd be pretty African. But this particular variety of the cross-shaped guard with shortish triangular lagnets seems fairly region-neutral for any markers I know what they mean; not to say it can't be IDd by the guard; but it's not helping me much. The square quillons may indeed be a mark for Arabia; I'd like to hear what Radu and Wolviex think of that though; they both seem to have seen a lot of European ones....

15th May 2005, 08:15 PM	#2
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	I think that Arabian plot could be correct while I have many problems to qualify this sabre as Turkish or Polish. I was trying to find some features which are characteristic for these countries, but I didn't thought about other ones like Arabia - and this was my fault. The problem is that quillons, rivets, this metal aplication around handle - doesn't look familiar to me, only with small exception. Now after RSword's and Ariel's arguments, which I didn't thought about earlier, I'm ready to exlude any Polish origin. Unfortunately Tom, quillons as I said it, doesn't look familiar to those I saw in our collection, except this "triangular langnets" which happen indeed in Polish, Turkish and I belive, almost every Karabela sabre. Ragards!

15th May 2005, 09:42 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yeah, they seem widespread, the triangular lagnets, and they may well occur in Arabia, too. The iron feruling piece is I think maybe a bit unusual for anywhere, though it sounds like several of us have seen somewhat similar things from a variety of regions....and if a pommel shape is in Moslem E Europe, and in N Africa, it wouldn't be surprising to see it at least once in a while in Arabia....I've recently become very curious about regional ID and origin for this style guard; I have no big knowledge; I have to study a lot more examples, obviously. I think it will be an important regional tracker if we figure it out, and it may be very simple or very hard; for me it is just an idea, and I may pursue it with a variety of vigor; I doubt much will occur soon. But it is on my mind, so I suspect I will have my eye on that particular feature of swords I see for a while.