English Short Sword

kahnjar1 · 16th October 2009, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
The form of the Yoeman Warders sword from the early days of Queen Victoria's reign is as per the attached photograph. The crown on Manolo's sword is I believe the Tudor crown used before the Hanoverians, 1714, and more recently between 1901 and 1953, the Georges, William IV and Victoria used St. Edward's crown which is the one used currently by EIIR. Hope this is of some help.
Regards,
Norman.

Thanks Norm for explaining the difference in the crown shape. The style of crown varies, and has varied thru the ages depending on the Monarch on the throne at the time. Sorry I was remiss in not saying this originally.
Regards Stuart

celtan · 17th October 2009, 03:49 PM

Thanks Norman, Jim and Stu,

I believe this sword was definitely neither designed nor made for a chicken-dodo outfit: It was relatively well done, an elegant fish-skin grip coupled to nicely etched blade.

While it was obviously not designed to be an effective weapon, it was most certainly an status-symbol, whose manufacture quality reflected well on the pertinent Corps, and whose bearer was quite probably honoured to wear it on Public appearances.

So far, we have three possible venues of research: 1. Westminster Abbey (The WA Chapter, Wardens, Coronations?) 2. UK Customs and Revenue 3. The Tower Of London's Beefeaters.

This is the fun-part of collecting: the sleuthing, the networking, the hunt for data !.

Pleeze, do let me know if any one finds anything of interest, specially our colleagues of British origin, and particularly those connected to London.

Cheers!

Manolo

BTW: Let me clarify that the reason I posted the "selling" caveat is because, some time ago, it was advised to warn potential contributors that their comments could be used to provide info on a sword to be sold. Since I never know when I'll trade or sell one of my babies, I figured it would be safer to simply always add the caveat, as requested.

Atlantia · 17th October 2009, 06:15 PM

I keep thinking bandsmans sword when I look at it... But its better quality than they usually are, almost a naval look to the handle.

Royal yeomanry Westminster Dragoons?

celtan · 18th October 2009, 12:07 AM

Hi Gene,

All of the british musician swords I have seen so far seem to be designed around a rather basic solid brass hilt, coupled to a simple blade.

Then, this could be an exception. The Tudor shield makes me think it could have some Royal ceremonial purpose, or perhaps religious and pertaining to the Abbey.

Another detail: This sword has an interesting end-point, straight edged. I have seen a similar point in German WWI-II replicas of medieval weapons, used for ceremonial purposes.
BTW, I forgot to mention it has an odd-looking hexagonal nut holding the pommel to the tang.

Curiouser, and Curiouser...

kahnjar1 · 18th October 2009, 04:03 AM

If the crown is Tudor, then it is likely to be because the era from which it comes, used the Tudor crown as the norm on Coats of Arms (as explained by Norm). IF you do not consider the sword as of practical use, then maybe my original idea that it could be a DRESS item is closer to the truth.
Suggest perhaps contact with the Historian at British Customs and Excise (I'm sure they will have one) and see what they have to say.
Maybe Gene could do this as he is at least in the right country.
Regards Stuart

Atlantia · 18th October 2009, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

If the crown is Tudor, then it is likely to be because the era from which it comes, used the Tudor crown as the norm on Coats of Arms (as explained by Norm). IF you do not consider the sword as of practical use, then maybe my original idea that it could be a DRESS item is closer to the truth.
Suggest perhaps contact with the Historian at British Customs and Excise (I'm sure they will have one) and see what they have to say.
Maybe Gene could do this as he is at least in the right country.
Regards Stuart

LOL, I'd be happy to help. Have a looksee and I'll do the same later. If we can find someone to telephone etc, I can do that

I'll grab the pics now in readiness.
Did anyone check into the westminster dragoons?

The crowned portcullis is the symbol of both houses of parliament. With all the 'costume drama' aspects of our democracy, could it be a guard from there?

The only thing that makes me think it might not be completely ceremonial is the plain nature of the blade.
But the small guard reminds me or a court sword.
Hmmm, its a puzzler.

kahnjar1 · 18th October 2009, 05:10 PM

Yes the blade is plain, but it would probably have had a scabbard of some sort.
Stu

17th October 2009, 03:49 PM	#2
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Thanks Norman, Jim and Stu, I believe this sword was definitely neither designed nor made for a chicken-dodo outfit: It was relatively well done, an elegant fish-skin grip coupled to nicely etched blade. While it was obviously not designed to be an effective weapon, it was most certainly an status-symbol, whose manufacture quality reflected well on the pertinent Corps, and whose bearer was quite probably honoured to wear it on Public appearances. So far, we have three possible venues of research: 1. Westminster Abbey (The WA Chapter, Wardens, Coronations?) 2. UK Customs and Revenue 3. The Tower Of London's Beefeaters. This is the fun-part of collecting: the sleuthing, the networking, the hunt for data !. Pleeze, do let me know if any one finds anything of interest, specially our colleagues of British origin, and particularly those connected to London. Cheers! Manolo BTW: Let me clarify that the reason I posted the "selling" caveat is because, some time ago, it was advised to warn potential contributors that their comments could be used to provide info on a sword to be sold. Since I never know when I'll trade or sell one of my babies, I figured it would be safer to simply always add the caveat, as requested.

17th October 2009, 06:15 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I keep thinking bandsmans sword when I look at it... But its better quality than they usually are, almost a naval look to the handle. Royal yeomanry Westminster Dragoons?

18th October 2009, 12:07 AM	#4
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Gene, All of the british musician swords I have seen so far seem to be designed around a rather basic solid brass hilt, coupled to a simple blade. Then, this could be an exception. The Tudor shield makes me think it could have some Royal ceremonial purpose, or perhaps religious and pertaining to the Abbey. Another detail: This sword has an interesting end-point, straight edged. I have seen a similar point in German WWI-II replicas of medieval weapons, used for ceremonial purposes. BTW, I forgot to mention it has an odd-looking hexagonal nut holding the pommel to the tang. Curiouser, and Curiouser...

18th October 2009, 04:03 AM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	If the crown is Tudor, then it is likely to be because the era from which it comes, used the Tudor crown as the norm on Coats of Arms (as explained by Norm). IF you do not consider the sword as of practical use, then maybe my original idea that it could be a DRESS item is closer to the truth. Suggest perhaps contact with the Historian at British Customs and Excise (I'm sure they will have one) and see what they have to say. Maybe Gene could do this as he is at least in the right country. Regards Stuart

18th October 2009, 05:10 PM	#7
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Yes the blade is plain, but it would probably have had a scabbard of some sort. Stu