English Short Sword

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2009, 05:23 PM

Manolo, what an exceptionally unusual item, which I believe may indeed be associated with the 'Beefeaters', who were termed Tower Warders, and I believe accordingly these may be considered one of thier swords. The style of the weapon is very much in accord with particular corps and departmental swords of the Victorian period, noting that Stuarts suggestion is quite plausible as well.

It seems of course that I have seen something similar in references on British military swords, although these guards are comprised of retired military men of considerable standing and this is unofficially a yeomanry unit. I have checked "Swords of the British Army" (Brian Robson, 1975), but no reference was found, therefore I think it is in one of the earlier books which I do not have with me. Possibly "British Military Swords 1800 to Present Day" by John Wilkinson-Latham (1966) or another one which I cant recall specifically, I think something with similar title, also by another of the Wilkinson's but cannot recall which.
It is possible that it was in the venerable "Sword, Lance & Bayonet" by Ffoulkes and Hopkinson (1938), but these books I have not seen for some time.

In any case, as you have noted, the Westminster arms are indeed with the charges of the portcullis and chains, so are not necessarily confined to the customs unit. The portcullis and chains on the shellguard on your sword would keenly represent the Tower warders as they indeed were in charge of prisoners entering through 'London Gate', the portcullis seen.

Hamburger Rogers were as noted outfitters located in Covent Garden, and I have seen thier etched panel on officers swords of c. 1860's-80's.

I hope this will help a little, and thank you for your candor in noting that this will be an item for sale in the future. It is a most interesting piece and I am glad we had a chance to discuss it here first. I have, as noted, it seems seen something like this at some point in a reference book, but cannot recall ever seeing one offered or discussed, as there cannot have been any significant volume of them.

All very best regards,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 16th October 2009, 08:06 PM

Hi,
The form of the Yoeman Warders sword from the early days of Queen Victoria's reign is as per the attached photograph. The crown on Manolo's sword is I believe the Tudor crown used before the Hanoverians, 1714, and more recently between 1901 and 1953, the Georges, William IV and Victoria used St. Edward's crown which is the one used currently by EIIR. Hope this is of some help.
Regards,
Norman.

kahnjar1 · 16th October 2009, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
The form of the Yoeman Warders sword from the early days of Queen Victoria's reign is as per the attached photograph. The crown on Manolo's sword is I believe the Tudor crown used before the Hanoverians, 1714, and more recently between 1901 and 1953, the Georges, William IV and Victoria used St. Edward's crown which is the one used currently by EIIR. Hope this is of some help.
Regards,
Norman.

Thanks Norm for explaining the difference in the crown shape. The style of crown varies, and has varied thru the ages depending on the Monarch on the throne at the time. Sorry I was remiss in not saying this originally.
Regards Stuart

celtan · 17th October 2009, 03:49 PM

Thanks Norman, Jim and Stu,

I believe this sword was definitely neither designed nor made for a chicken-dodo outfit: It was relatively well done, an elegant fish-skin grip coupled to nicely etched blade.

While it was obviously not designed to be an effective weapon, it was most certainly an status-symbol, whose manufacture quality reflected well on the pertinent Corps, and whose bearer was quite probably honoured to wear it on Public appearances.

So far, we have three possible venues of research: 1. Westminster Abbey (The WA Chapter, Wardens, Coronations?) 2. UK Customs and Revenue 3. The Tower Of London's Beefeaters.

This is the fun-part of collecting: the sleuthing, the networking, the hunt for data !.

Pleeze, do let me know if any one finds anything of interest, specially our colleagues of British origin, and particularly those connected to London.

Cheers!

Manolo

BTW: Let me clarify that the reason I posted the "selling" caveat is because, some time ago, it was advised to warn potential contributors that their comments could be used to provide info on a sword to be sold. Since I never know when I'll trade or sell one of my babies, I figured it would be safer to simply always add the caveat, as requested.

Atlantia · 17th October 2009, 06:15 PM

I keep thinking bandsmans sword when I look at it... But its better quality than they usually are, almost a naval look to the handle.

Royal yeomanry Westminster Dragoons?

celtan · 18th October 2009, 12:07 AM

Hi Gene,

All of the british musician swords I have seen so far seem to be designed around a rather basic solid brass hilt, coupled to a simple blade.

Then, this could be an exception. The Tudor shield makes me think it could have some Royal ceremonial purpose, or perhaps religious and pertaining to the Abbey.

Another detail: This sword has an interesting end-point, straight edged. I have seen a similar point in German WWI-II replicas of medieval weapons, used for ceremonial purposes.
BTW, I forgot to mention it has an odd-looking hexagonal nut holding the pommel to the tang.

Curiouser, and Curiouser...

kahnjar1 · 18th October 2009, 04:03 AM

If the crown is Tudor, then it is likely to be because the era from which it comes, used the Tudor crown as the norm on Coats of Arms (as explained by Norm). IF you do not consider the sword as of practical use, then maybe my original idea that it could be a DRESS item is closer to the truth.
Suggest perhaps contact with the Historian at British Customs and Excise (I'm sure they will have one) and see what they have to say.
Maybe Gene could do this as he is at least in the right country.
Regards Stuart

Dmitry · 19th October 2009, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I have checked "Swords of the British Army" (Brian Robson, 1975), but no reference was found, therefore I think it is in one of the earlier books which I do not have with me. Possibly "British Military Swords 1800 to Present Day" by John Wilkinson-Latham (1966) or another one which I cant recall specifically, I think something with similar title, also by another of the Wilkinson's but cannot recall which.
It is possible that it was in the venerable "Sword, Lance & Bayonet" by Ffoulkes and Hopkinson (1938), but these books I have not seen for some time.

This sword is neither in the W-L, nor in the ffoulkes book. In fact, it's in none of my books on the subject of British edged weapons.

Jim McDougall · 19th October 2009, 08:06 PM

Thanks very much for that confirmation Dmitry, now I can rest easy knowing that this was not in those references which are not available.....but, now the maddening thing is, where the heck did I see something like this?!!!
I think that is the worst thing, like having something on the tip of your tongue, but cant remember it.....kinda seems to happen more for me these days!!

Great observations and comments guys (Gene, loved the 'costume drama' note! LOL

. It does seem the neoclassic scene does come in quite a bit in these dress pieces.

Norman, thank you for confirming the Tower warders pattern sword, I had seen that form before but wasnt sure of the periods it entailed.

I agree with Manolo, 'curioser and curioser!' and its great fun to see us as the contingent of 'weapons whisperers' working together as detectives!!

We'll find it.

All the best,
Jim

16th October 2009, 08:06 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, The form of the Yoeman Warders sword from the early days of Queen Victoria's reign is as per the attached photograph. The crown on Manolo's sword is I believe the Tudor crown used before the Hanoverians, 1714, and more recently between 1901 and 1953, the Georges, William IV and Victoria used St. Edward's crown which is the one used currently by EIIR. Hope this is of some help. Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 16th October 2009 at 08:57 PM.

19th October 2009, 08:06 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thanks very much for that confirmation Dmitry, now I can rest easy knowing that this was not in those references which are not available.....but, now the maddening thing is, where the heck did I see something like this?!!! I think that is the worst thing, like having something on the tip of your tongue, but cant remember it.....kinda seems to happen more for me these days!! Great observations and comments guys (Gene, loved the 'costume drama' note! LOL. It does seem the neoclassic scene does come in quite a bit in these dress pieces. Norman, thank you for confirming the Tower warders pattern sword, I had seen that form before but wasnt sure of the periods it entailed. I agree with Manolo, 'curioser and curioser!' and its great fun to see us as the contingent of 'weapons whisperers' working together as detectives!! We'll find it. All the best, Jim

16th October 2009, 05:23 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Manolo, what an exceptionally unusual item, which I believe may indeed be associated with the 'Beefeaters', who were termed Tower Warders, and I believe accordingly these may be considered one of thier swords. The style of the weapon is very much in accord with particular corps and departmental swords of the Victorian period, noting that Stuarts suggestion is quite plausible as well. It seems of course that I have seen something similar in references on British military swords, although these guards are comprised of retired military men of considerable standing and this is unofficially a yeomanry unit. I have checked "Swords of the British Army" (Brian Robson, 1975), but no reference was found, therefore I think it is in one of the earlier books which I do not have with me. Possibly "British Military Swords 1800 to Present Day" by John Wilkinson-Latham (1966) or another one which I cant recall specifically, I think something with similar title, also by another of the Wilkinson's but cannot recall which. It is possible that it was in the venerable "Sword, Lance & Bayonet" by Ffoulkes and Hopkinson (1938), but these books I have not seen for some time. In any case, as you have noted, the Westminster arms are indeed with the charges of the portcullis and chains, so are not necessarily confined to the customs unit. The portcullis and chains on the shellguard on your sword would keenly represent the Tower warders as they indeed were in charge of prisoners entering through 'London Gate', the portcullis seen. Hamburger Rogers were as noted outfitters located in Covent Garden, and I have seen thier etched panel on officers swords of c. 1860's-80's. I hope this will help a little, and thank you for your candor in noting that this will be an item for sale in the future. It is a most interesting piece and I am glad we had a chance to discuss it here first. I have, as noted, it seems seen something like this at some point in a reference book, but cannot recall ever seeing one offered or discussed, as there cannot have been any significant volume of them. All very best regards, Jim

17th October 2009, 03:49 PM	#4
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Thanks Norman, Jim and Stu, I believe this sword was definitely neither designed nor made for a chicken-dodo outfit: It was relatively well done, an elegant fish-skin grip coupled to nicely etched blade. While it was obviously not designed to be an effective weapon, it was most certainly an status-symbol, whose manufacture quality reflected well on the pertinent Corps, and whose bearer was quite probably honoured to wear it on Public appearances. So far, we have three possible venues of research: 1. Westminster Abbey (The WA Chapter, Wardens, Coronations?) 2. UK Customs and Revenue 3. The Tower Of London's Beefeaters. This is the fun-part of collecting: the sleuthing, the networking, the hunt for data !. Pleeze, do let me know if any one finds anything of interest, specially our colleagues of British origin, and particularly those connected to London. Cheers! Manolo BTW: Let me clarify that the reason I posted the "selling" caveat is because, some time ago, it was advised to warn potential contributors that their comments could be used to provide info on a sword to be sold. Since I never know when I'll trade or sell one of my babies, I figured it would be safer to simply always add the caveat, as requested.

17th October 2009, 06:15 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I keep thinking bandsmans sword when I look at it... But its better quality than they usually are, almost a naval look to the handle. Royal yeomanry Westminster Dragoons?

18th October 2009, 12:07 AM	#6
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Gene, All of the british musician swords I have seen so far seem to be designed around a rather basic solid brass hilt, coupled to a simple blade. Then, this could be an exception. The Tudor shield makes me think it could have some Royal ceremonial purpose, or perhaps religious and pertaining to the Abbey. Another detail: This sword has an interesting end-point, straight edged. I have seen a similar point in German WWI-II replicas of medieval weapons, used for ceremonial purposes. BTW, I forgot to mention it has an odd-looking hexagonal nut holding the pommel to the tang. Curiouser, and Curiouser...

18th October 2009, 04:03 AM	#7
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	If the crown is Tudor, then it is likely to be because the era from which it comes, used the Tudor crown as the norm on Coats of Arms (as explained by Norm). IF you do not consider the sword as of practical use, then maybe my original idea that it could be a DRESS item is closer to the truth. Suggest perhaps contact with the Historian at British Customs and Excise (I'm sure they will have one) and see what they have to say. Maybe Gene could do this as he is at least in the right country. Regards Stuart