Controversial Hunting Sword – European with Moorish influence?

Rick · 15th October 2009, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

In answer to a number of queries I have posted some additional pictures and can provide the following information. Not that I think it will help much.

This sword was purchased by previous owner from an antique shop in London in 1949. I purchased the item in Australia in 1995.

The connection Cordoba, Argentina was speculative due to the name SAN RoqE. The information bout this Saint and dogs however is very interesting, given the hilt design.

Cheers Cathey

Slightly coincidental .

Blade shape and the little Sun marks .

Small world .

Jim McDougall · 15th October 2009, 06:06 AM

Cathey, I wanted to thank you for posting this here, and for joining us!!!
This short sword which as agreed seems to be a hunting weapon with profound Hispano-Moresque presence is indeed a fascinating and enigmatic piece. It is not at all surprising that something this unusual will bring many interpretations and perceptions as seen by various individuals, as it is in essence, art.

When I first saw this piece, and saw the attribution to Argentina, my first thoughts were of similar items vaguely recalled, and particularly to me, the rounded choil at the back of the blade, which reminded me of that feature in varying degree in some Argentinean punals. It seems that this is seen on some Meditteranean dirks as well, along with the ferrule in variant form which joins the blade and the handle at the blade back.

The octagonal handle, and ferrule, which is somewhat columnar, also seemed to well correspond to Meditteranean dirks.

The pommel cap with capstan is a feature on these dirks and it seems some punal from Argentina, but it seems that wide variation and features derived from European examples have become hard to discern, except of course for the experts in these weapons.

Now understanding that the SAN RoqE is probably in reference to this key figure in the history of Spain, which seems to correspond to the theme of this weapon with the dog on the pommel cap, holding the chain in his mouth. As Fernando has noted, this dog image is important with reference to this Saint. The town of San Roque is in Andalusian Spain, in the province of Cadiz, very near Gibraltar, though it is unclear whether that is important as to the region the sword is from or the SAN RoqE is to the swords theme.

The double headed or Imperial eagle is key in Spanish history as pertains to the coat of arms of Charles I (Carlos I) 1519-1556, who was elected Holy Roman Emperor in 1519, and I understand is considered the first Spanish king after the Reconquista. I am sure that is probably not entirely correct, but the salient point is his use of the Byzantine eagle.

This short sword I would suggest with reviewed information, may be a commemorative weapon fashioned for presentation to an esteemed figure as a diplomatic gift, as hunting type weapons often were. The San Roque theme along with neoclassic characteristics of the falcata,and Hispano-Moresque style as well as certain Meditteranean knife features seem to support this in some degree.

It does certainly seem of 19th century, and I would add even more to the conundrum by noting that Arab sa'ifs of the 18th and even into the early 20th century had these pommel connecting chains to quillon (while this is to the blade collar).

All best regards,
Jim

Chris Evans · 15th October 2009, 08:36 AM

Hi Cathey,

Jim McDougall has greatly flattered my superficial knowledge of "Criollo" (Creole) edged weapons by inviting my comments on this piece.

Before Jim made his kind invitation, I saw your post, but was reluctant to say anything about this piece because everything about is atypical of Argentina, indeed South America, but of course, proving this view would be more difficult than just saying so. However, given Abel Domenech's expert view, quoted in Lee's informative post, and Jim's aforementioned invitation, I have gained the encouragement needed to say something, but sadly can do little better than wholeheartedly agree with every word of Mr Domenech.

If at all I could make a small contribution, it would be by way of emphasizing Mr Domenech's words to the effect that all sorts of edged wares found their way to and were used in Sth America. So, whilst the ornate metal hilted and furnished knife fashioned from either discarded swords, bayonets or trade blades, by the end of the 19th century did become representative of the River Plate region, nevertheless these were by no means universal.

Cheers
Chris

Jim McDougall · 15th October 2009, 02:08 PM

Chris thank you for coming in on this, and for your valuable comments which are much appreciated in discussing this most interesting sword. Your observations in accord with those of Mr. Domenech very much secure the position that this short sword is not Argentinian, despite some of the admittedly superficial gestalt to the punal that I had noted.

In further looking over the weapon and the various elements of its motif and style, I keep returning to Gav's very astute comment of its resemblance in degree to the ancient falcata.

With consideration to the SAN RoqE inscribed in the blade motif, as well as the carved horn pommel cap in the form of a dog, carrying the theme of this important figure included in Spanish tradition, it would seem that traditionalism is key to this sword.

When the element of the Imperial double headed eagle is added to these features, its importance in Spanish heraldry seems to reflect Emperor Charles V or Charles I of Spain (1519-1556) and as this piece is obviously not of that period, perhaps suggests possibly Carlist (?) associations incorporated into the traditional themes seen here overall.

The sword is fashioned very much in the style of elegant cutlery and hunting trousse items, with the heavy repousse blade collar (which holds the vestigial knuckle guard chain attached to the pommel cap), resembling some of these in provincial pieces from Italy and Spain. As previously noted, the rounded choil is a feature sometimes present on the Meditteranean dirks, which this sword seems to reflect in gestalt.

What seems interestingly incongruent, and all the more intriguing, is the very Hispano-Moresque styling used in accord with the very traditional theme of the Cult of Saint Roch and the Holy Roman Empire eagle.

A beautiful weapon, completely intriguing with this mystery !!

Outstanding observations and discussion with Fernando's addition of information on the dog, the interesting twist Rick noted on the solar symbols, Gavs note on the falcata and of course the key comments of Mr. Domenech furnished by Lee and supported by Chris.

Having established that this seems to have been European and agreed to be 19th century, my comments are simply suggestions compiling notes on this swords features, and I hope to hear other views and perspectives on these as well.

The attached illustrations are of the ancient falcata; the Byzantine Imperial eagle; and of St. Roch and the dog carrying bread in his mouth.

All very best regards,
Jim

15th October 2009, 02:08 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Chris thank you for coming in on this, and for your valuable comments which are much appreciated in discussing this most interesting sword. Your observations in accord with those of Mr. Domenech very much secure the position that this short sword is not Argentinian, despite some of the admittedly superficial gestalt to the punal that I had noted. In further looking over the weapon and the various elements of its motif and style, I keep returning to Gav's very astute comment of its resemblance in degree to the ancient falcata. With consideration to the SAN RoqE inscribed in the blade motif, as well as the carved horn pommel cap in the form of a dog, carrying the theme of this important figure included in Spanish tradition, it would seem that traditionalism is key to this sword. When the element of the Imperial double headed eagle is added to these features, its importance in Spanish heraldry seems to reflect Emperor Charles V or Charles I of Spain (1519-1556) and as this piece is obviously not of that period, perhaps suggests possibly Carlist (?) associations incorporated into the traditional themes seen here overall. The sword is fashioned very much in the style of elegant cutlery and hunting trousse items, with the heavy repousse blade collar (which holds the vestigial knuckle guard chain attached to the pommel cap), resembling some of these in provincial pieces from Italy and Spain. As previously noted, the rounded choil is a feature sometimes present on the Meditteranean dirks, which this sword seems to reflect in gestalt. What seems interestingly incongruent, and all the more intriguing, is the very Hispano-Moresque styling used in accord with the very traditional theme of the Cult of Saint Roch and the Holy Roman Empire eagle. A beautiful weapon, completely intriguing with this mystery !! Outstanding observations and discussion with Fernando's addition of information on the dog, the interesting twist Rick noted on the solar symbols, Gavs note on the falcata and of course the key comments of Mr. Domenech furnished by Lee and supported by Chris. Having established that this seems to have been European and agreed to be 19th century, my comments are simply suggestions compiling notes on this swords features, and I hope to hear other views and perspectives on these as well. The attached illustrations are of the ancient falcata; the Byzantine Imperial eagle; and of St. Roch and the dog carrying bread in his mouth. All very best regards, Jim Attached Images

15th October 2009, 06:06 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Cathey, I wanted to thank you for posting this here, and for joining us!!! This short sword which as agreed seems to be a hunting weapon with profound Hispano-Moresque presence is indeed a fascinating and enigmatic piece. It is not at all surprising that something this unusual will bring many interpretations and perceptions as seen by various individuals, as it is in essence, art. When I first saw this piece, and saw the attribution to Argentina, my first thoughts were of similar items vaguely recalled, and particularly to me, the rounded choil at the back of the blade, which reminded me of that feature in varying degree in some Argentinean punals. It seems that this is seen on some Meditteranean dirks as well, along with the ferrule in variant form which joins the blade and the handle at the blade back. The octagonal handle, and ferrule, which is somewhat columnar, also seemed to well correspond to Meditteranean dirks. The pommel cap with capstan is a feature on these dirks and it seems some punal from Argentina, but it seems that wide variation and features derived from European examples have become hard to discern, except of course for the experts in these weapons. Now understanding that the SAN RoqE is probably in reference to this key figure in the history of Spain, which seems to correspond to the theme of this weapon with the dog on the pommel cap, holding the chain in his mouth. As Fernando has noted, this dog image is important with reference to this Saint. The town of San Roque is in Andalusian Spain, in the province of Cadiz, very near Gibraltar, though it is unclear whether that is important as to the region the sword is from or the SAN RoqE is to the swords theme. The double headed or Imperial eagle is key in Spanish history as pertains to the coat of arms of Charles I (Carlos I) 1519-1556, who was elected Holy Roman Emperor in 1519, and I understand is considered the first Spanish king after the Reconquista. I am sure that is probably not entirely correct, but the salient point is his use of the Byzantine eagle. This short sword I would suggest with reviewed information, may be a commemorative weapon fashioned for presentation to an esteemed figure as a diplomatic gift, as hunting type weapons often were. The San Roque theme along with neoclassic characteristics of the falcata,and Hispano-Moresque style as well as certain Meditteranean knife features seem to support this in some degree. It does certainly seem of 19th century, and I would add even more to the conundrum by noting that Arab sa'ifs of the 18th and even into the early 20th century had these pommel connecting chains to quillon (while this is to the blade collar). All best regards, Jim

15th October 2009, 08:36 AM	#3
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Cathey, Jim McDougall has greatly flattered my superficial knowledge of "Criollo" (Creole) edged weapons by inviting my comments on this piece. Before Jim made his kind invitation, I saw your post, but was reluctant to say anything about this piece because everything about is atypical of Argentina, indeed South America, but of course, proving this view would be more difficult than just saying so. However, given Abel Domenech's expert view, quoted in Lee's informative post, and Jim's aforementioned invitation, I have gained the encouragement needed to say something, but sadly can do little better than wholeheartedly agree with every word of Mr Domenech. If at all I could make a small contribution, it would be by way of emphasizing Mr Domenech's words to the effect that all sorts of edged wares found their way to and were used in Sth America. So, whilst the ornate metal hilted and furnished knife fashioned from either discarded swords, bayonets or trade blades, by the end of the 19th century did become representative of the River Plate region, nevertheless these were by no means universal. Cheers Chris