Controversial Hunting Sword – European with Moorish influence?

kronckew · 13th October 2009, 12:25 PM

wow, i really like that one, would like to see the whole blade...

Gavin Nugent · 13th October 2009, 12:32 PM

Me again, the eye candy was just to good not to come back again and have another look. I'd second Kronckew's WOW, I just noticed the return on the pommel is actually a dogs head, very Spanish in my eyes as is the engravings to the blade...I look forward to further discussion and my third view of it...

Gav

Sajen · 13th October 2009, 02:33 PM

Beautiful sword!

Lee · 14th October 2009, 03:58 PM

An amazingly innovative and well executed piece. Considering the suspicions of Argentinean origin, I took the liberty of directing Mr. Abel Domenech of Buenos Aires to this thread as I cannot imagine anyone more knowledgeable about the arms and armour of South America and he has kindly shared his thoughts and graciously allowed me to post them here.

----- Mr. Domenech's Comments -----

I personally think that it is definitively Not a piece made in Argentina, nor made abroad specifically for our market.

I can`t find the connection with Cordoba, which is one of our Provinces. Unless it has some kind of inscription on the blade or any other part which mentions it, of course.

It is true, that San Roque is a very popular Saint here, and several locations have this name, including a very well known one in the Province of Cordoba. But also the worship to San Roque Saint came here from Spain.

I agree with Cathey, that the piece has a very strong Moorish or oriental flavour, both in the shape of the sword, as in the decoration.
Acid etching (aqua forte) decoration is thoroughly used on the blade of this sword, and this technique was of common use in Toledo, were artisans were taught to use it centuries ago from the Moor invaders.

If the piece was found in Argentina territory, and not knowing about its previous owners, it is very difficult to say something about it, but simple speculation.

This is not a "gaucho edged weapon" by itself, but gauchos were known to put into use anything which came to their hands, as long as it was useful for their job, or to their taste.

It is known fact that some facones were made from Lace handle rapiers, I personally found, some years ago, a XIX Century Rodgers kandjar in the hands of a local "paisano", an also a Russian kindjal was known to be used by a notorious person during the XIX C.

Many of these pieces of weaponry came to our territories, carried by immigrants, Spanish soldiers, and adventurers, during the Conquista and later Colonial periods.

In later periods, many exotic weapons came here in hands of wealthy local people visiting Europe or the Orient, and eventually, these pieces were lost or stolen here to finally end in strange hands, without the knowledge of the real value of the piece.

It would be interesting to know a little more about the Cordoba connection, and may be the present owner could tell us why he feels that there is such a connection.

fernando · 14th October 2009, 06:44 PM

Hi Cathey, welcome to the forum.
Concerning the description; who made it ? did it come with the sword ?
In other words, who has connected this piece to Cordoba?
San Roqe is naturally a misspell for San Roque.
You know there is (also) a (small) city called San Roque in Colombia? I know this is a fantasy, but there is silver in Colombia, men with hats, deer and eagles.
The dog in the hilt; the legend says that when São Roque was contaminated with the plague, he retired to the forest, and only survived because a dog brought him daily a piece of bread. In some countries this Saint is considered the patron of dogs.
I know this doesn't help much, and would like to know where that sword comes from.
Fernando

Cathey · 15th October 2009, 02:59 AM

Hi Guys

In answer to a number of queries I have posted some additional pictures and can provide the following information. Not that I think it will help much.

This sword was purchased by previous owner from an antique shop in London in 1949. I purchased the item in Australia in 1995.

The connection Cordoba, Argentina was speculative due to the name SAN RoqE. The information bout this Saint and dogs however is very interesting, given the hilt design.

Cheers Cathey

Rick · 15th October 2009, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

In answer to a number of queries I have posted some additional pictures and can provide the following information. Not that I think it will help much.

This sword was purchased by previous owner from an antique shop in London in 1949. I purchased the item in Australia in 1995.

The connection Cordoba, Argentina was speculative due to the name SAN RoqE. The information bout this Saint and dogs however is very interesting, given the hilt design.

Cheers Cathey

Slightly coincidental .

Blade shape and the little Sun marks .

Small world .

13th October 2009, 12:32 PM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Me again Me again, the eye candy was just to good not to come back again and have another look. I'd second Kronckew's WOW, I just noticed the return on the pommel is actually a dogs head, very Spanish in my eyes as is the engravings to the blade...I look forward to further discussion and my third view of it... Gav

14th October 2009, 03:58 PM	#4
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 937	Concerning an Argentinean Origin An amazingly innovative and well executed piece. Considering the suspicions of Argentinean origin, I took the liberty of directing Mr. Abel Domenech of Buenos Aires to this thread as I cannot imagine anyone more knowledgeable about the arms and armour of South America and he has kindly shared his thoughts and graciously allowed me to post them here. ----- Mr. Domenech's Comments ----- I personally think that it is definitively Not a piece made in Argentina, nor made abroad specifically for our market. I can`t find the connection with Cordoba, which is one of our Provinces. Unless it has some kind of inscription on the blade or any other part which mentions it, of course. It is true, that San Roque is a very popular Saint here, and several locations have this name, including a very well known one in the Province of Cordoba. But also the worship to San Roque Saint came here from Spain. I agree with Cathey, that the piece has a very strong Moorish or oriental flavour, both in the shape of the sword, as in the decoration. Acid etching (aqua forte) decoration is thoroughly used on the blade of this sword, and this technique was of common use in Toledo, were artisans were taught to use it centuries ago from the Moor invaders. If the piece was found in Argentina territory, and not knowing about its previous owners, it is very difficult to say something about it, but simple speculation. This is not a "gaucho edged weapon" by itself, but gauchos were known to put into use anything which came to their hands, as long as it was useful for their job, or to their taste. It is known fact that some facones were made from Lace handle rapiers, I personally found, some years ago, a XIX Century Rodgers kandjar in the hands of a local "paisano", an also a Russian kindjal was known to be used by a notorious person during the XIX C. Many of these pieces of weaponry came to our territories, carried by immigrants, Spanish soldiers, and adventurers, during the Conquista and later Colonial periods. In later periods, many exotic weapons came here in hands of wealthy local people visiting Europe or the Orient, and eventually, these pieces were lost or stolen here to finally end in strange hands, without the knowledge of the real value of the piece. It would be interesting to know a little more about the Cordoba connection, and may be the present owner could tell us why he feels that there is such a connection.

15th October 2009, 02:59 AM	#6
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Controversial Hunting Sword – European with Moorish influence Hi Guys In answer to a number of queries I have posted some additional pictures and can provide the following information. Not that I think it will help much. This sword was purchased by previous owner from an antique shop in London in 1949. I purchased the item in Australia in 1995. The connection Cordoba, Argentina was speculative due to the name SAN RoqE. The information bout this Saint and dogs however is very interesting, given the hilt design. Cheers Cathey Attached Images

13th October 2009, 12:25 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	wow, i really like that one, would like to see the whole blade...

13th October 2009, 02:33 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,214	Beautiful sword!

14th October 2009, 06:44 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Cathey, welcome to the forum. Concerning the description; who made it ? did it come with the sword ? In other words, who has connected this piece to Cordoba? San Roqe is naturally a misspell for San Roque. You know there is (also) a (small) city called San Roque in Colombia? I know this is a fantasy, but there is silver in Colombia, men with hats, deer and eagles. The dog in the hilt; the legend says that when São Roque was contaminated with the plague, he retired to the forest, and only survived because a dog brought him daily a piece of bread. In some countries this Saint is considered the patron of dogs. I know this doesn't help much, and would like to know where that sword comes from. Fernando