Plz help with ID of 2 Daggers

tom hyle · 14th May 2005, 02:50 PM

Yeah, it does, and all Ottoman/Turkic, of course. These multifullered jobbies seem to have been/be made with a definite "art dagger" side to them, and considerable variation is perhaps attendant to that concept (I'm not trying to say they're not for use, but that visual stunningness and individuality of design seems to be prized in the cutlery from this region; contributing to fanciness/desireability much as do precious materials for instance.).
Justin, I've commonly seen the effect you describe; a bevelled edge fading out into a flat unsharp edge with square corners at the tip. I have not seen it as consistent in any cultural setting, but it seems fairly common on E African spears and daggers, and I think I've seen it on Arab (per se) work, too, and from Europe (difinitely from Europe; the sentence structure got weird on me....). The idea does seem to be to prevent crumpling/"fish-hooking" of the bevel at the tip.
Who wants to talk about the "stall" or "pad" for the pinky finger? Seems a Tartaric feature. Seems to relate to the subhilt/stall/pad for the first one or two fingers also seen on some modern Turkish etc. work, and those to similar features on ancient steppes swords.
Though not usually set off by a grooved line, the narrowing of a tulwar hilt at the top before the pommel may also be related; it provides a similar gripping place for the small finger.
Erlikhan, I want to disagree with you more, just so you'll keep showing me nice pictures

Lots of variety in this region, but the experts and the books have always created an impression/atmosphere of homogeneity that does not seem to be borne out by facts on the ground, pretty well all around the cutlery world.

Conogre · 18th May 2005, 06:00 AM

Keeping secrets from me, eh, Justin?

Here's another of the "Surmene" daggers/knives, this one a little guy at 8" long with a 4" blade and pink dyed ivory hilt scales, and even with its diminuative size has a clearly defined hardened edge and an extremely long wicked point that makes it "feel" more lethal than a cursory glance would indicate, and now that you mention it, I can see the definite resemblence to a yatagan in the end of the hilt.
It also, of course, works extremely well as a "steak knife of the world"!

I got this one and a Yatagan both from a gentleman in Izmir who had related the information to me about the knives being peculiar to the region but have never seen it verified elsewhere until now...thank you.
Like Justin, I also have to second the motion and hope that you've overlooked a Black Sea yatagan or two, as that's #1 on my "quest list".
I have to admit to being somewhat surprised to find that both styles are from Turkey....now I REALLY have to dig and find my copy of Levine's....thanks a lot, Ian, as sometimes it's harder to find things here than it is on the internet!

Mike

erlikhan · 18th May 2005, 07:38 AM

Well Tom, what you want is easy. I can post as many Surmene pictures as many you wish, as they are plenty here in market and offered continuously on internet. Seller says this one is 41 cms. A big one with some silver inlay. Perhaps I must pay more attention to them and collect some while they are still not expensive??

.
I just think, both the pinky finger pad and the unsharp edged tip are to support and strengthen the thrusts. By "Tartaric",you mean Crimean Tartars or Middle Ajia? On which samples does the pad exist? Or both?
regards

Justin · 18th May 2005, 02:14 PM

erlikhan:Thanks for posting all the examples for comparison.This last one with the ears seems to have an almost identical sheath to mine.

So the first one is a Surmene.What do I call the other one,Im surprised that theres been few comments on it,I know I have seen these around before.

Mark · 18th May 2005, 02:19 PM

That is one cool-looking knife, erlikhan!

Conogre · 18th May 2005, 02:44 PM

erlikhan, you have me curious (and drooling) when you state that the "Surmene daggers/knives" are continuously offered on the internet, as I comb the net (including Ebay) with regularity and have yet to see more than one or two in the past five years....would you possibly have a link to a dealer that sells to westerners that has them occasionally?
I would definitely like to add at least a few more to my collection, and likewise, would have no problem with some that you could purchase at your local market.
While the 2nd knife hasn't garnered much comment, I couldn't help but notice that the "maker's mark" on the blade of Lee's knife is nearly identical to that same knife, which would possibly indicate that at one time they were more common and of much higher quality.
Mike

erlikhan · 18th May 2005, 04:14 PM

Conogre, these are local Turkish sites. Not international. Export of any kind of antiques from Turkey is strictly forbidden. Even a ww2 or post war dagger or bayonet can simply be thought as a potential antique and held by customs, which means economical catastrophe for the sender to be able to take it back. Just depends on the mood and knowledge of the custom official on duty in mail control. The seller can take a "not antique" document from museum per piece in advance, but would cost a lot of money. So you would hardly be able to find a local seller to mail it abroad.
regards

18th May 2005, 06:00 AM	#2
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Keeping secrets from me, eh, Justin? Here's another of the "Surmene" daggers/knives, this one a little guy at 8" long with a 4" blade and pink dyed ivory hilt scales, and even with its diminuative size has a clearly defined hardened edge and an extremely long wicked point that makes it "feel" more lethal than a cursory glance would indicate, and now that you mention it, I can see the definite resemblence to a yatagan in the end of the hilt. It also, of course, works extremely well as a "steak knife of the world"! I got this one and a Yatagan both from a gentleman in Izmir who had related the information to me about the knives being peculiar to the region but have never seen it verified elsewhere until now...thank you. Like Justin, I also have to second the motion and hope that you've overlooked a Black Sea yatagan or two, as that's #1 on my "quest list". I have to admit to being somewhat surprised to find that both styles are from Turkey....now I REALLY have to dig and find my copy of Levine's....thanks a lot, Ian, as sometimes it's harder to find things here than it is on the internet! Mike Attached Images

18th May 2005, 07:38 AM	#3
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Well Tom, what you want is easy. I can post as many Surmene pictures as many you wish, as they are plenty here in market and offered continuously on internet. Seller says this one is 41 cms. A big one with some silver inlay. Perhaps I must pay more attention to them and collect some while they are still not expensive?? . I just think, both the pinky finger pad and the unsharp edged tip are to support and strengthen the thrusts. By "Tartaric",you mean Crimean Tartars or Middle Ajia? On which samples does the pad exist? Or both? regards Attached Images

18th May 2005, 04:14 PM	#7
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Conogre, these are local Turkish sites. Not international. Export of any kind of antiques from Turkey is strictly forbidden. Even a ww2 or post war dagger or bayonet can simply be thought as a potential antique and held by customs, which means economical catastrophe for the sender to be able to take it back. Just depends on the mood and knowledge of the custom official on duty in mail control. The seller can take a "not antique" document from museum per piece in advance, but would cost a lot of money. So you would hardly be able to find a local seller to mail it abroad. regards Last edited by erlikhan; 18th May 2005 at 09:55 PM.

14th May 2005, 02:50 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yeah, it does, and all Ottoman/Turkic, of course. These multifullered jobbies seem to have been/be made with a definite "art dagger" side to them, and considerable variation is perhaps attendant to that concept (I'm not trying to say they're not for use, but that visual stunningness and individuality of design seems to be prized in the cutlery from this region; contributing to fanciness/desireability much as do precious materials for instance.). Justin, I've commonly seen the effect you describe; a bevelled edge fading out into a flat unsharp edge with square corners at the tip. I have not seen it as consistent in any cultural setting, but it seems fairly common on E African spears and daggers, and I think I've seen it on Arab (per se) work, too, and from Europe (difinitely from Europe; the sentence structure got weird on me....). The idea does seem to be to prevent crumpling/"fish-hooking" of the bevel at the tip. Who wants to talk about the "stall" or "pad" for the pinky finger? Seems a Tartaric feature. Seems to relate to the subhilt/stall/pad for the first one or two fingers also seen on some modern Turkish etc. work, and those to similar features on ancient steppes swords. Though not usually set off by a grooved line, the narrowing of a tulwar hilt at the top before the pommel may also be related; it provides a similar gripping place for the small finger. Erlikhan, I want to disagree with you more, just so you'll keep showing me nice pictures Lots of variety in this region, but the experts and the books have always created an impression/atmosphere of homogeneity that does not seem to be borne out by facts on the ground, pretty well all around the cutlery world. Last edited by tom hyle; 14th May 2005 at 03:03 PM.

18th May 2005, 02:14 PM	#4
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 178	erlikhan:Thanks for posting all the examples for comparison.This last one with the ears seems to have an almost identical sheath to mine. So the first one is a Surmene.What do I call the other one,Im surprised that theres been few comments on it,I know I have seen these around before.

18th May 2005, 02:19 PM	#5
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	That is one cool-looking knife, erlikhan!

18th May 2005, 02:44 PM	#6
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	erlikhan, you have me curious (and drooling) when you state that the "Surmene daggers/knives" are continuously offered on the internet, as I comb the net (including Ebay) with regularity and have yet to see more than one or two in the past five years....would you possibly have a link to a dealer that sells to westerners that has them occasionally? I would definitely like to add at least a few more to my collection, and likewise, would have no problem with some that you could purchase at your local market. While the 2nd knife hasn't garnered much comment, I couldn't help but notice that the "maker's mark" on the blade of Lee's knife is nearly identical to that same knife, which would possibly indicate that at one time they were more common and of much higher quality. Mike