Copper made African Blades

tom hyle · 14th May 2005, 11:38 AM

Nice pile of treasure! How 'bout those 'Zande swords; yummie looking. Kuba ikulas, Yoruba (Beni?) government sword, sheaths, baby; sheaths!......
If the piece is entirely copper, especially if it's a single casting (? kind of looks like it) then I'd call it an effigy of a weapon, I think; a sculpture in the shape of a weapon, but not constructed like one, and is likely ceremonial/decorative, perhaps a large balancing weight (though the long shape is not real conducive.....). Other copper and brass blades though more commonly are attached to ordinary wooden hilts. It is said certain persons must not touch iron, many of them only at certain times. On the other hand, Congo-basin royalty often claim blacksmithery in their ancestry or skills...............? In any event, those who tend to think copper or brass etc. blades "must" be ceremonial have forgotten how very very much Death such have handed out. Perhaps Africans consider copper blades poisonous, as we have heard of Philippinos?

Oriental-Arms · 14th May 2005, 11:45 AM

My terrible English, the blade only is copper. The hilt is wood covered with brass and copper strips, sorry for the misleading information. These are definitely weapons. Sure not as hard as steel but good hammered and hardened blades.

tom hyle · 14th May 2005, 12:08 PM

Right on; I thought I could see the tang going into a cavity, but with lost wax casting such is possible, and I don't see any nonmetal showing; only going off what you'd said. Yeah, I view the copper ones, absent some other information as equally weapons as the iron ones. IMHO too much credit is given to weaponly effectiveness in the whole rise of iron discussion. Not that this isn't a factor, but its relative common-ness, for instance, is a factor, too. In any event, if iron weapons are more effective (and absent good bronze this is notable) they also rust away, and coppery weapons are certainly not ineffective. I just keep looking deeper and deeper into that pile.......I'm a bit curious abut the one with the round tip whose middle is behind the squarish sheath in the bottom left of the picture; I think I know what it looks like, but of course I can't be sure......curiosity, interest, and jealousy!

!

Aurangzeb · 14th May 2005, 02:03 PM

Hi Oriental arms!

I am truly in a state of envy.Very nice collection.I whould not guess there whould be any Somali weapons in there?

Those large collections bought as a set are nice.Always a chance of finding something very very rare!In a 60 coin set in bought on Ebay I found a 1-Pahlavi in very good condition( very hard to find coin from pre-rebellion Iran)Sorry for getting slightly off topic

.
But again very very nice!

Conogre · 14th May 2005, 02:05 PM

What a fantastic treasure trove......I imagine that even with your familiarity with bladed weaponry, going through the collection, piece by piece has to be more enjoyment than work.
The advantages of copper, to many tribes, was that it could be beautifully worked at much lower temperatures, easily straightened if bent in battle, as opposed to many iron and steel pieces that simply broke, making them at least temporarily useless.
Mike

Andrew · 14th May 2005, 03:39 PM

Outstanding! Artzi (Avner?) when you come across a pile of dha like that, please do call me immediately.

tom hyle · 14th May 2005, 04:48 PM

BTW, I just love the legged swords. Once this guy had a legged, curved double-edger. He wouldn't swap it though. Thought it was money, he did.

Freddy · 14th May 2005, 08:25 PM

Really nice find. I see there are quite a few pieces with scabbard.

I'm green with envy

What I love about finding a new item is the work in trying to identify it. This pile would keep me busy for at least a couple of weeks. There are more pieces in this pile than in my collection !

14th May 2005, 08:25 PM	#8
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	WOW ! ! ! Really nice find. I see there are quite a few pieces with scabbard. I'm green with envy What I love about finding a new item is the work in trying to identify it. This pile would keep me busy for at least a couple of weeks. There are more pieces in this pile than in my collection !

14th May 2005, 11:38 AM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Nice pile of treasure! How 'bout those 'Zande swords; yummie looking. Kuba ikulas, Yoruba (Beni?) government sword, sheaths, baby; sheaths!...... If the piece is entirely copper, especially if it's a single casting (? kind of looks like it) then I'd call it an effigy of a weapon, I think; a sculpture in the shape of a weapon, but not constructed like one, and is likely ceremonial/decorative, perhaps a large balancing weight (though the long shape is not real conducive.....). Other copper and brass blades though more commonly are attached to ordinary wooden hilts. It is said certain persons must not touch iron, many of them only at certain times. On the other hand, Congo-basin royalty often claim blacksmithery in their ancestry or skills...............? In any event, those who tend to think copper or brass etc. blades "must" be ceremonial have forgotten how very very much Death such have handed out. Perhaps Africans consider copper blades poisonous, as we have heard of Philippinos?

14th May 2005, 11:45 AM	#2
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	My terrible English, the blade only is copper. The hilt is wood covered with brass and copper strips, sorry for the misleading information. These are definitely weapons. Sure not as hard as steel but good hammered and hardened blades.

14th May 2005, 12:08 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Right on; I thought I could see the tang going into a cavity, but with lost wax casting such is possible, and I don't see any nonmetal showing; only going off what you'd said. Yeah, I view the copper ones, absent some other information as equally weapons as the iron ones. IMHO too much credit is given to weaponly effectiveness in the whole rise of iron discussion. Not that this isn't a factor, but its relative common-ness, for instance, is a factor, too. In any event, if iron weapons are more effective (and absent good bronze this is notable) they also rust away, and coppery weapons are certainly not ineffective. I just keep looking deeper and deeper into that pile.......I'm a bit curious abut the one with the round tip whose middle is behind the squarish sheath in the bottom left of the picture; I think I know what it looks like, but of course I can't be sure......curiosity, interest, and jealousy! !

14th May 2005, 02:03 PM	#4
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi Oriental arms! I am truly in a state of envy.Very nice collection.I whould not guess there whould be any Somali weapons in there? Those large collections bought as a set are nice.Always a chance of finding something very very rare!In a 60 coin set in bought on Ebay I found a 1-Pahlavi in very good condition( very hard to find coin from pre-rebellion Iran)Sorry for getting slightly off topic . But again very very nice!

14th May 2005, 02:05 PM	#5
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	What a fantastic treasure trove......I imagine that even with your familiarity with bladed weaponry, going through the collection, piece by piece has to be more enjoyment than work. The advantages of copper, to many tribes, was that it could be beautifully worked at much lower temperatures, easily straightened if bent in battle, as opposed to many iron and steel pieces that simply broke, making them at least temporarily useless. Mike

14th May 2005, 03:39 PM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Outstanding! Artzi (Avner?) when you come across a pile of dha like that, please do call me immediately.

14th May 2005, 04:48 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	BTW, I just love the legged swords. Once this guy had a legged, curved double-edger. He wouldn't swap it though. Thought it was money, he did.