Could the eyelash mark originate from Vienna ?

Norman McCormick · 7th October 2009, 09:08 PM

Hi Jens,
Although I perceive that your statement with regard to research has validity I do not think it is particularly apt in a Forum with a varied membership base. Surely a community like this should engage with everybody regardless of their degree of interest. For some this is just a hobby, maybe one of many, and not an academic pursuit. Some may be constrained by time and financial threshholds. For others it may be that they have more than a passing interest in the subject but not necessarily to the point of "obsession". I am not for one minute suggesting that anyone on this Forum is 'obsessive" about their subject/s just that there are varying degrees to which members take an interest from mild and passing to hobbyist zeal and academic pursuit. I personally have had a long and varied interest in arms and armour kindled in the first instance by childhood brushes with 'knights in armour' and tales of Robin Hood but that is just what it is "a varied interest". Indian arms and their roots do have a special interest for me but with some recent aquisitions my fascination has also been rekindled in 18th/19th Century British military swords. I concede that there always has to be someone who takes on the mantle of teacher, investigator and ground breaker in any sphere of 'knowledge seeking' I just don't think that the ability or the will is necessarily part and parcel of everyone who takes part in and enjoys the comradeship of an open Forum. Notwithstanding the aforementioned it is a joy to me, and I'm sure to many, to get questions answered and information supplied by the more expert and knowledgeable members without resorting to acres of text in search of an answer. Some people enjoy and positively revel in 'acres of text', these are the ones who will ultimately produce the facts to substantiate or disprove the theories unfortunately I, along with others I presume, are not able to give the time and commitment that such an undertaking requires but this does not diminish our interest or enjoyment of the subject. I sincerely hope that I have not caused any offence as none is intended.
My Regards,
Norman.

spiral · 7th October 2009, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I find the subject most interesting, but please tell me, how many of you have tried to investigate it, and if, what results have you reached?
A forum like this, is a place where you can ask questions about a weapons, but it is also a place where you can answer question from others, and this question has been up several times - so there must have been enough time for several to make a research - what is the result of the research?
I don't want to sound rude, but I think it is time for some to start answering questions, an not only to ask them - to research.
Jens

Ive found & shared much information on kukri & other subjects over the years on this & other forums Jen that I have researched, but I too would like to know the true origin of crescent & eyelash marks we find.

Personaly I have no idea of the true origin in Europe or wherever of such marks but would would not be shocked to find some ancient celtic,viking or even older swords carried similar marks even if we know of no current examples. But that is just supposition & speculation on my part, of course.

I can tell you my research & questianing has led me to belive that the Eyelash & crescent marks found on kukri are probably just another facet of the fact that that all Hindu weapons have religious symbols or symolism whether obvious or not, to conteract the less healthy spirits that can be attracted to weapons that have been involved in violence,death or bloodshed, Such symbols as Buddhas or Durgas eye on Ram Dao, the Lotus on kora The kaudi on the kukri are other examples of this.

Whatever its original origins I suspect that is what it comes to mean on Hindu weaponary. Perhaps this is because some excelent blades were seen historicaly so the marks were taken as auspicios?

With kukri many of these marks have been called "armoury marks" But I think that although the individual design, the nature & how of the the mark is made can sometimes show, which workshop, armoury or even villige kami made it. But personaly I essentialy belive that to be just coincedence.

Spiral

Gonzalo G · 8th October 2009, 01:39 AM

Personally, I would begin to question the supposedly and exclusively european origin of this kind of marks. Their presence in antique nepali weapons opens many questions. Maybe this is another of the so many myths created by western specialist in edged weapons. I don't think India needed so much occidental blades, or their 'prestigious' marks, and if those blades are present in indian swords is more due to their openess to experimentate than for true need of them. Openess other peoples didn't had. Unless we have hard evidence based on facts, and not a mere speculation, we cannot assume the origin of this kind of marks as a fact. Better, as Jens said, investigate it and present solid arguments. A good time-line comparison among this marks among oriental and occidental blades would be useful. What if this mark appears first in an older oriental blade?
Regards

Gonzalo

Jim McDougall · 8th October 2009, 04:00 AM

Very well said comments gentlemen.

Gonzalo, as always good points of contention. So far the evidence I have seen, and discovered in the years I have researched these markings, show them occurring on 15th century European weapons, as seen in the page David has shown from "Armi Bianchi Italiene" . In this book there are numerous other examples with variations of these markings.

India does not reflect European influences until the Portuguese arrivals, and then slowly began to use European blades with Mahratta trade. This is of course the origin of the so called phirangi blade. I'm not sure of you have read any of the trademarks thread discussions or my previous post here, but virtually all references concerning weapons and thier markings hold the European origins of these sickle marks. It would take some time to add the cites and references for all the research that has been done from the 19th century arms writers including Baron DeCosson, Archibald Campbell, and the later Bashford Dean, Sir Guy Laking,Sir James Mann and later Dr. Lloyd Cabot Briggs, to name a few, who have made profound studies of blade markings on European swords. The Wallace Collection, catalogued by Sir James Mann in 1962 has numerous examples of German and Italian blades with variations of these sickle marks from a time span of several centuries.

It is not a question of 'needing' the European blades, as much as a matter of convenience and interest in European trade, primarily brought on by the Mahratta merchants. In Central India, Hyder Ali brought in European weapons and forces so was quite familiar with these blades from Germany in the late 18th century.

I think we have seen a preponderance of evidence for these markings being European, and as I have tried to present on many occasions the details of this proof. I think one of the things that presents difficulty is when the content of what is presented is not read before questions are asked or contentions made, agreed as what has been noted by Jens.

I have yet to see any evidence of these markings appearing in any of the cultural mediums described, India, Afghanistan or the Caucusus, before the 18th century, though the markings are known in European regions as noted from the 15th, appearing in Styria and Solingen by the mid to late 17th.

The appearance of the sickle marks on Nepalese weapons, in this case the kukris shown here by Spiral is actually quite surprising. I honestly have not seen these appearing on kukris before, and would suggest that this is most likely an affectation added well into the British Raj period and long after the famed Gurkha units were formed. While these are 'antique' weapons from these Nepalese regiments, they are certainly 19th century if not later and do not suggest any ancient existence nor particular Nepalese symbolism that would indicate origins of these sickle marks in Nepal nor India.

In short, there is nothing Eurocentric about the fact that these sickle marks have origins on European blades, and as I have previously emphasized, were originally likely guild marks, much as other such 'trade guild' markings used in medieval times in Europe. This is not speculation, but documented fact.
While it is well known that there are numerous myths in earlier writings on weapons, most of this derives from popular collectors lore and typically not from scholars, though there admittedly are exceptions and certain errors inevitable. I firmly believe that documented evidence from well provenanced weapons and supported literature from the scholars, some of whom I have mentioned, stands as evidence rather than myth.

The idea that these markings might have originated in India or Nepal as shown by thier presence on weapons that are typically not known prior to at least the 17th century such as the tulwar, whose earlier origins remain unclear, or the kukri, which was virtually unknown until the conflicts of the late 18th century however, does seem speculative. The only examples of these sickle marks on these weapons of the Subcontinent, Central Asia, the Caucusus, Nepal or any other native weapons I am aware of are primarily of the 19th century, with perhaps a few occasions in the 18th.

Best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 8th October 2009, 04:59 PM

Sometimes when you write, the wrong people feel hurt. I am sorry for this as it was not my intention. My intention was to get collectors out of the easy chair, and go to the book shelf or the library - and start reading about the things they are collecting.
It is easy to ask a question and read the answer on the forum, but you will only get a pin pointed answer, and not a broader knowledge about the item in question - and that I find is a pity.
Jens

spiral · 8th October 2009, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Sometimes when you write, the wrong people feel hurt. I am sorry for this as it was not my intention. My intention was to get collectors out of the easy chair, and go to the book shelf or the library - and start reading about the things they are collecting.
It is easy to ask a question and read the answer on the forum, but you will only get a pin pointed answer, and not a broader knowledge about the item in question - and that I find is a pity.
Jens

Thankyou Jens , I didnt feel hurt but wasnt sure who your comment was aimed at as it was unspecfic so I answeared from where I stood.

i do understand wat you mean Jens, for many years I anseared 2 or 3 emails a week fotr requests for information about kukri, most I answeared out of shared intrest untill I finaly realised how rude & ignorant many of those emails actualy were, they were essentialy demands for information without a please, could you, or even a thankyou involved.

Today I still repley to polite or what appear to be genuinly interested people but the rude & ignorant who presume my duty in life is to answear there kukri questians can "whistle in the wind."

best regards to you Jens,

Jonathan AKA Spiral

Jens Nordlunde · 8th October 2009, 09:41 PM

Thank you Spiral for your answer, you nailed one of the things - another is that members of the forum must seek informations elsewhere other than on the forum, or the forum will die out when chaps like you, Jim and a few others stops writing - it may take some time, as some of us are rather tough, but we may stop writing on the forum.
There are informations out there, but you will have to compare them, and decide in which ones you believe, as they can differ a lot.
Jens

Amuk Murugul · 26th October 2009, 06:07 AM

Hullo everybody

,

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

.......
i do understand wat you mean Jens, for many years I anseared 2 or 3 emails a week fotr requests for information about kukri, most I answeared out of shared intrest untill I finaly realised how rude & ignorant many of those emails actualy were, they were essentialy demands for information without a please, could you, or even a thankyou involved.

Today I still repley to polite or what appear to be genuinly interested people but the rude & ignorant who presume my duty in life is to answear there kukri questians can "whistle in the wind." ....

Jonathan AKA Spiral

Spiral, rest assured that you are not alone in this. There are also many who for one reason or another, have tired of being engaged in discussion/debate (not just in this forum) about certain topics. It gives them a feeling of DEJA VU ...DEJA vu ... deja vu... . (Especially those people whose beliefs may run contrary to the mainstream). ...But rather than adopting 'the philosophy of the Oak', they've opted for 'the philosophy of the Bamboo'...

Best,

7th October 2009, 09:08 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,632	Hi Jens, Although I perceive that your statement with regard to research has validity I do not think it is particularly apt in a Forum with a varied membership base. Surely a community like this should engage with everybody regardless of their degree of interest. For some this is just a hobby, maybe one of many, and not an academic pursuit. Some may be constrained by time and financial threshholds. For others it may be that they have more than a passing interest in the subject but not necessarily to the point of "obsession". I am not for one minute suggesting that anyone on this Forum is 'obsessive" about their subject/s just that there are varying degrees to which members take an interest from mild and passing to hobbyist zeal and academic pursuit. I personally have had a long and varied interest in arms and armour kindled in the first instance by childhood brushes with 'knights in armour' and tales of Robin Hood but that is just what it is "a varied interest". Indian arms and their roots do have a special interest for me but with some recent aquisitions my fascination has also been rekindled in 18th/19th Century British military swords. I concede that there always has to be someone who takes on the mantle of teacher, investigator and ground breaker in any sphere of 'knowledge seeking' I just don't think that the ability or the will is necessarily part and parcel of everyone who takes part in and enjoys the comradeship of an open Forum. Notwithstanding the aforementioned it is a joy to me, and I'm sure to many, to get questions answered and information supplied by the more expert and knowledgeable members without resorting to acres of text in search of an answer. Some people enjoy and positively revel in 'acres of text', these are the ones who will ultimately produce the facts to substantiate or disprove the theories unfortunately I, along with others I presume, are not able to give the time and commitment that such an undertaking requires but this does not diminish our interest or enjoyment of the subject. I sincerely hope that I have not caused any offence as none is intended. My Regards, Norman. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 7th October 2009 at 10:55 PM.

8th October 2009, 04:00 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	Very well said comments gentlemen. Gonzalo, as always good points of contention. So far the evidence I have seen, and discovered in the years I have researched these markings, show them occurring on 15th century European weapons, as seen in the page David has shown from "Armi Bianchi Italiene" . In this book there are numerous other examples with variations of these markings. India does not reflect European influences until the Portuguese arrivals, and then slowly began to use European blades with Mahratta trade. This is of course the origin of the so called phirangi blade. I'm not sure of you have read any of the trademarks thread discussions or my previous post here, but virtually all references concerning weapons and thier markings hold the European origins of these sickle marks. It would take some time to add the cites and references for all the research that has been done from the 19th century arms writers including Baron DeCosson, Archibald Campbell, and the later Bashford Dean, Sir Guy Laking,Sir James Mann and later Dr. Lloyd Cabot Briggs, to name a few, who have made profound studies of blade markings on European swords. The Wallace Collection, catalogued by Sir James Mann in 1962 has numerous examples of German and Italian blades with variations of these sickle marks from a time span of several centuries. It is not a question of 'needing' the European blades, as much as a matter of convenience and interest in European trade, primarily brought on by the Mahratta merchants. In Central India, Hyder Ali brought in European weapons and forces so was quite familiar with these blades from Germany in the late 18th century. I think we have seen a preponderance of evidence for these markings being European, and as I have tried to present on many occasions the details of this proof. I think one of the things that presents difficulty is when the content of what is presented is not read before questions are asked or contentions made, agreed as what has been noted by Jens. I have yet to see any evidence of these markings appearing in any of the cultural mediums described, India, Afghanistan or the Caucusus, before the 18th century, though the markings are known in European regions as noted from the 15th, appearing in Styria and Solingen by the mid to late 17th. The appearance of the sickle marks on Nepalese weapons, in this case the kukris shown here by Spiral is actually quite surprising. I honestly have not seen these appearing on kukris before, and would suggest that this is most likely an affectation added well into the British Raj period and long after the famed Gurkha units were formed. While these are 'antique' weapons from these Nepalese regiments, they are certainly 19th century if not later and do not suggest any ancient existence nor particular Nepalese symbolism that would indicate origins of these sickle marks in Nepal nor India. In short, there is nothing Eurocentric about the fact that these sickle marks have origins on European blades, and as I have previously emphasized, were originally likely guild marks, much as other such 'trade guild' markings used in medieval times in Europe. This is not speculation, but documented fact. While it is well known that there are numerous myths in earlier writings on weapons, most of this derives from popular collectors lore and typically not from scholars, though there admittedly are exceptions and certain errors inevitable. I firmly believe that documented evidence from well provenanced weapons and supported literature from the scholars, some of whom I have mentioned, stands as evidence rather than myth. The idea that these markings might have originated in India or Nepal as shown by thier presence on weapons that are typically not known prior to at least the 17th century such as the tulwar, whose earlier origins remain unclear, or the kukri, which was virtually unknown until the conflicts of the late 18th century however, does seem speculative. The only examples of these sickle marks on these weapons of the Subcontinent, Central Asia, the Caucusus, Nepal or any other native weapons I am aware of are primarily of the 19th century, with perhaps a few occasions in the 18th. Best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 8th October 2009 at 02:24 PM. Reason: added info and pertinant material for continuity

8th October 2009, 01:39 AM	#3
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Personally, I would begin to question the supposedly and exclusively european origin of this kind of marks. Their presence in antique nepali weapons opens many questions. Maybe this is another of the so many myths created by western specialist in edged weapons. I don't think India needed so much occidental blades, or their 'prestigious' marks, and if those blades are present in indian swords is more due to their openess to experimentate than for true need of them. Openess other peoples didn't had. Unless we have hard evidence based on facts, and not a mere speculation, we cannot assume the origin of this kind of marks as a fact. Better, as Jens said, investigate it and present solid arguments. A good time-line comparison among this marks among oriental and occidental blades would be useful. What if this mark appears first in an older oriental blade? Regards Gonzalo

8th October 2009, 04:59 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Sometimes when you write, the wrong people feel hurt. I am sorry for this as it was not my intention. My intention was to get collectors out of the easy chair, and go to the book shelf or the library - and start reading about the things they are collecting. It is easy to ask a question and read the answer on the forum, but you will only get a pin pointed answer, and not a broader knowledge about the item in question - and that I find is a pity. Jens

8th October 2009, 09:41 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you Spiral for your answer, you nailed one of the things - another is that members of the forum must seek informations elsewhere other than on the forum, or the forum will die out when chaps like you, Jim and a few others stops writing - it may take some time, as some of us are rather tough, but we may stop writing on the forum. There are informations out there, but you will have to compare them, and decide in which ones you believe, as they can differ a lot. Jens