Question about barrel stamping

fahnenschmied · 30th September 2009, 03:14 AM

Managed to get some photos of the relic in question. The camera made manifest some details that were impossible to see my first time with it...it does look as if there is a head of some sort on the shaft. Similar to but not exactly like the Kalthoff marks shown above...
The barrel is has a tapering octagonal breech section that terminates in a ring that is 17 1/2 inches from the breech. At present it only has about 12 1/4 more inches to the muzzle. There is a seat for a rear sight about 9 1/2 inches from the breech - whether it is original to it I cannot say, but many earlier 18th century fowlers do have rear sights on them.
Barrel is 1 3/16 (about 3cm) wide at the breech...bore seems to be right at .62. Even where it is cut off the tube is very thin, about a millimeter wall thickness.
Some question was made about the small bore of these "fowlers" - while it is true that a 12 bore throws a much better shot pattern, the lightness of the ammunition and the lightness of the gun made these smaller bores very popular, at least with the natives of this country. Just as the 19th century Northwest guns were about 24 bore, @ 58 caliber - most of the archaeologically recovered guns found in native sites here measure something from .54 to .62

fahnenschmied · 30th September 2009, 03:20 AM

Now for a few of the guard. It has been artfully altered to "rifle style" by being sawn apart and added to. Part of the front finial is gone, I think, and the rear one totally so. But apparent is the thin "neck" at the front of the guard, and the early mid eighteenth century shape still left on the front tang...I think the guard is probably the same age as the barrel...

fahnenschmied · 30th September 2009, 03:26 AM

And a parting shot...the entry pipe could also be an original part. It has been filed slightly octagonal...when...hard to say, but I would think that was a later alteration. The one rammer pipe is also similarly shaped.
Also a shot of the buttplate, rifle shaped but with odd screw placement, and also a crappy profile, showing the rifle-like lines it got when restocked.

fahnenschmied · 30th September 2009, 03:30 AM

Top of barrel. Not clear but you can see the rings where it goes from octagonal to round. There is a brass based front sight near the muzzle...

kahnjar1 · 30th September 2009, 05:18 AM

Think you need (if possible) to get a look at the underneath of the barrel. The style looks very British to me, but the mark you show says something else. The proof marks (if any) will tell the story.
Regards Stuart

cornelistromp · 30th September 2009, 07:31 AM

Hello,

the Barrel is from the second half of the 17th C and shortened.
(probably made by Matthias Kalthoff Copenhagen, Denmark.)
The lock the all mounts (also the tricker guard) and stock are later from around 1800, also the rounded top shape of the butt points me to northern Europe.

regards from Holland

fahnenschmied · 3rd October 2009, 04:39 AM

Many thanks for the reply! Is this Matthius Kalthoff the son of Peter Kalthoff? I might have to look about for some of his other work. It would be very interesting if I knew if this little gun (or parts of it) had been around here for a long time...in this area there was almost no Europeans living until 1710. Most of the original colonists here in New Bern came from Switzerland and southern Germany. However, none of the old letters from the Swiss colonists, nor John Lawson's books, mentions guns in any detail. I have always wondered if any of the colonist brought any from "home" or if they purchased them in England, where they left from. Perhaps I can try to track down just who donated this thing, but I think it was aquired in the 60s... Usually folks have everything wrong- - The musket supposedly used in the Revolution plainly has an 1808 stamped on the lockplate, or the "Gun used by my grandfather in the Civil War" is a plain old Belgian rabbit-eared double of 1880s vintage.
I cannot find any good photos online of the sort of guard I think this one was modified from. I helped a friend inlet a gun he was building, a copy of a French trade fusil from 1720 - 30; the guard looked much like this one must have when new. It could have been modified to look just like this one, in fact, its what caught my eye about this gun in the first place. I just don't know how far back that style of guard goes...
Thanks again to everybody who has given input - quite an amazing wealth of knowledge here!

Dave

30th September 2009, 03:14 AM	#1
fahnenschmied Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 12	A few thousand words.... Managed to get some photos of the relic in question. The camera made manifest some details that were impossible to see my first time with it...it does look as if there is a head of some sort on the shaft. Similar to but not exactly like the Kalthoff marks shown above... The barrel is has a tapering octagonal breech section that terminates in a ring that is 17 1/2 inches from the breech. At present it only has about 12 1/4 more inches to the muzzle. There is a seat for a rear sight about 9 1/2 inches from the breech - whether it is original to it I cannot say, but many earlier 18th century fowlers do have rear sights on them. Barrel is 1 3/16 (about 3cm) wide at the breech...bore seems to be right at .62. Even where it is cut off the tube is very thin, about a millimeter wall thickness. Some question was made about the small bore of these "fowlers" - while it is true that a 12 bore throws a much better shot pattern, the lightness of the ammunition and the lightness of the gun made these smaller bores very popular, at least with the natives of this country. Just as the 19th century Northwest guns were about 24 bore, @ 58 caliber - most of the archaeologically recovered guns found in native sites here measure something from .54 to .62 Attached Images

30th September 2009, 03:20 AM	#2
fahnenschmied Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 12	Now for a few of the guard. It has been artfully altered to "rifle style" by being sawn apart and added to. Part of the front finial is gone, I think, and the rear one totally so. But apparent is the thin "neck" at the front of the guard, and the early mid eighteenth century shape still left on the front tang...I think the guard is probably the same age as the barrel... Attached Images

30th September 2009, 03:26 AM	#3
fahnenschmied Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 12	And a parting shot...the entry pipe could also be an original part. It has been filed slightly octagonal...when...hard to say, but I would think that was a later alteration. The one rammer pipe is also similarly shaped. Also a shot of the buttplate, rifle shaped but with odd screw placement, and also a crappy profile, showing the rifle-like lines it got when restocked. Attached Images

30th September 2009, 03:30 AM	#4
fahnenschmied Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 12	parting shot... Top of barrel. Not clear but you can see the rings where it goes from octagonal to round. There is a brass based front sight near the muzzle... Attached Images

30th September 2009, 05:18 AM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,800	Think you need (if possible) to get a look at the underneath of the barrel. The style looks very British to me, but the mark you show says something else. The proof marks (if any) will tell the story. Regards Stuart

30th September 2009, 07:31 AM	#6
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hello, the Barrel is from the second half of the 17th C and shortened. (probably made by Matthias Kalthoff Copenhagen, Denmark.) The lock the all mounts (also the tricker guard) and stock are later from around 1800, also the rounded top shape of the butt points me to northern Europe. regards from Holland

3rd October 2009, 04:39 AM	#7
fahnenschmied Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 12	Many thanks for the reply! Is this Matthius Kalthoff the son of Peter Kalthoff? I might have to look about for some of his other work. It would be very interesting if I knew if this little gun (or parts of it) had been around here for a long time...in this area there was almost no Europeans living until 1710. Most of the original colonists here in New Bern came from Switzerland and southern Germany. However, none of the old letters from the Swiss colonists, nor John Lawson's books, mentions guns in any detail. I have always wondered if any of the colonist brought any from "home" or if they purchased them in England, where they left from. Perhaps I can try to track down just who donated this thing, but I think it was aquired in the 60s... Usually folks have everything wrong- - The musket supposedly used in the Revolution plainly has an 1808 stamped on the lockplate, or the "Gun used by my grandfather in the Civil War" is a plain old Belgian rabbit-eared double of 1880s vintage. I cannot find any good photos online of the sort of guard I think this one was modified from. I helped a friend inlet a gun he was building, a copy of a French trade fusil from 1720 - 30; the guard looked much like this one must have when new. It could have been modified to look just like this one, in fact, its what caught my eye about this gun in the first place. I just don't know how far back that style of guard goes... Thanks again to everybody who has given input - quite an amazing wealth of knowledge here! Dave