Comparison of Decorations on Arms and non-Arms Objects

Jens Nordlunde · 29th September 2009, 04:07 PM

Thank you Jim for making this thread a sticker.

I hope that others will join with their knowledge, so the thread will be a place where collectors interested in Indian weapons can go and learn from what we have found out.

I have written an article on Bundi katars, which will be published in South Asian Studies Journal no 25 in November. Those of you interested in katars can get the Journal, and hopefully enjoy the article. Here is the link to South Asian Studies http://www.basas.org.uk/journal.htm

Atlantia · 30th September 2009, 06:10 PM

Hi all,
I know I'm 'expanding' this discussion a little and I hope Alex will forgive me for this little 'aside'?
We have on occasion discussed fittings, scabbard mounts, incised designs etc, and conjectured on how they were produced.
With that in mind, I would like to share (again) my favourite Qajar style Persian bronze tray (which seems fitting in Alex thread as he has helped me so much in understanding it).

We know that this tray was produced in Isfahan in 1895. The style and quality wouldn't look out of place significantly earlier than that though.
Anyway, keep reading, my reasons will hopefully become clear...

Then, if you turn the tray over, on the undecorated back, there are clear signs of the beginnings of a different design, presumably abandoned in favour of this one.
Why is this interesting?
Because it was being 'drawn' in tiny hammered dots from a sharp needle/point.
Which led me back to the 'face' side and sure enough, in a few places you can see where lines have cut through lines of these tiny dots.
I know this isn't an 'earth shattering' revelation, but it does answer a few questions for me, and I hope others will be interested in how some of this metalwork was actually produced.

Please excuse the pictures of these 'dot' patterns, they are quite indistinct under the patina and I've had to alter the contrast etc, to show them a little more clearly.

Presumably, this is the same method (or one of the favoured ones) for producing similar quality designs in silver etc, I wonder if it was used on steel?

I always assumed that these designs would have been drawn onto the metal with something like engravers blue, then chiseled straight into the metal.
If you look at the picture showing the bird outline, there are around 150/200 dots in just that one tiny element. Estimate/multiply that to the smaller 3" picture of the front side, even with basic outlines it would be several thousand dots, which would equate to (by my estimate) well over 100,000 across the whole tray.
And thats before the engraver even started to 'join the dots' and cut in the detail.
Even a small area such as would be needed for a scabbard mount, or a simpler design cut into the harder steel of a helmet would be an incredibly time consuming process.
Which started me wondering if the engraver had a mechanical tool of some sort with a vibrating point?

Jens Nordlunde · 1st October 2009, 03:51 PM

I think this thread belongs here as well, so before it gets lost - here it is http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=Salumbar
G. N. Pant's name is mentioned now and again, but although I have some of his books, I am not too happy to quote him. The reason for this is, that he, too often writes a name of a hilt, like 'Udaipur hilt', but he does not explain why he thinks it is from Udaipur. The use of this diamond shaped hilt was widely spread, but although he had access to all the armouries due to his job, he does not even give a hint, so you either have to believe what he writes, or put a question mark.

Jens Nordlunde · 16th December 2009, 07:47 PM

Like I said, on this thread the information’s will be dripping in. Sometimes there will be long between the ‘drippings’ and sometimes not so long, but I feel sure that we will gather important information’s.

The zigzag design was used all over India, like it was in many other countries – through many centuries, but sometimes you find something, wich combines the designs, and I think I have found this in Deccan.

Zebrowski, Mark: Gold, Silver and Bronze from Mughal India. Alexandria Press, London 1997. Shows a plate from the 17th century, and on the hilt of my tulwar the same design is shown. Zebrowski does not only say it is from Deccan, he also says it is from Bidar – the hart of Bidri ware. The hilt is not bidri, but it has the same design, so it is likely to come from the same district.

I don’t think the hilt is 17th century, maybe rather 18th century, but the design is the same.

ALEX · 18th December 2009, 07:51 PM

This is very interesting, Jens
The zigzag is a common Indian pattern indeed. It is also called Chevron pattern. There are vast examples of Chevron pattern including textiles, tiles, architecture, metalwork... in a variety of cultures: Persian, Ottoman, etc. Note the famous Indian Chevron pattern-weld pattern, for example. Presumably, it is a symbol of water, stemming from the double chevron hieroglyph of the old Egyptian civilization!
Here is another sample of Chevron/Zigzag decorations on Indian fittings, I think of late 19th Century:

30th September 2009, 06:10 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi all, I know I'm 'expanding' this discussion a little and I hope Alex will forgive me for this little 'aside'? We have on occasion discussed fittings, scabbard mounts, incised designs etc, and conjectured on how they were produced. With that in mind, I would like to share (again) my favourite Qajar style Persian bronze tray (which seems fitting in Alex thread as he has helped me so much in understanding it). We know that this tray was produced in Isfahan in 1895. The style and quality wouldn't look out of place significantly earlier than that though. Anyway, keep reading, my reasons will hopefully become clear... Then, if you turn the tray over, on the undecorated back, there are clear signs of the beginnings of a different design, presumably abandoned in favour of this one. Why is this interesting? Because it was being 'drawn' in tiny hammered dots from a sharp needle/point. Which led me back to the 'face' side and sure enough, in a few places you can see where lines have cut through lines of these tiny dots. I know this isn't an 'earth shattering' revelation, but it does answer a few questions for me, and I hope others will be interested in how some of this metalwork was actually produced. Please excuse the pictures of these 'dot' patterns, they are quite indistinct under the patina and I've had to alter the contrast etc, to show them a little more clearly. Presumably, this is the same method (or one of the favoured ones) for producing similar quality designs in silver etc, I wonder if it was used on steel? I always assumed that these designs would have been drawn onto the metal with something like engravers blue, then chiseled straight into the metal. If you look at the picture showing the bird outline, there are around 150/200 dots in just that one tiny element. Estimate/multiply that to the smaller 3" picture of the front side, even with basic outlines it would be several thousand dots, which would equate to (by my estimate) well over 100,000 across the whole tray. And thats before the engraver even started to 'join the dots' and cut in the detail. Even a small area such as would be needed for a scabbard mount, or a simpler design cut into the harder steel of a helmet would be an incredibly time consuming process. Which started me wondering if the engraver had a mechanical tool of some sort with a vibrating point? Last edited by Atlantia; 1st October 2009 at 05:32 PM.

16th December 2009, 07:47 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Like I said, on this thread the information’s will be dripping in. Sometimes there will be long between the ‘drippings’ and sometimes not so long, but I feel sure that we will gather important information’s. The zigzag design was used all over India, like it was in many other countries – through many centuries, but sometimes you find something, wich combines the designs, and I think I have found this in Deccan. Zebrowski, Mark: Gold, Silver and Bronze from Mughal India. Alexandria Press, London 1997. Shows a plate from the 17th century, and on the hilt of my tulwar the same design is shown. Zebrowski does not only say it is from Deccan, he also says it is from Bidar – the hart of Bidri ware. The hilt is not bidri, but it has the same design, so it is likely to come from the same district. I don’t think the hilt is 17th century, maybe rather 18th century, but the design is the same. Attached Images

18th December 2009, 07:51 PM	#5
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	This is very interesting, Jens The zigzag is a common Indian pattern indeed. It is also called Chevron pattern. There are vast examples of Chevron pattern including textiles, tiles, architecture, metalwork... in a variety of cultures: Persian, Ottoman, etc. Note the famous Indian Chevron pattern-weld pattern, for example. Presumably, it is a symbol of water, stemming from the double chevron hieroglyph of the old Egyptian civilization! Here is another sample of Chevron/Zigzag decorations on Indian fittings, I think of late 19th Century: Attached Images

29th September 2009, 04:07 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you Jim for making this thread a sticker. I hope that others will join with their knowledge, so the thread will be a place where collectors interested in Indian weapons can go and learn from what we have found out. I have written an article on Bundi katars, which will be published in South Asian Studies Journal no 25 in November. Those of you interested in katars can get the Journal, and hopefully enjoy the article. Here is the link to South Asian Studies http://www.basas.org.uk/journal.htm

1st October 2009, 03:51 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I think this thread belongs here as well, so before it gets lost - here it is http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=Salumbar G. N. Pant's name is mentioned now and again, but although I have some of his books, I am not too happy to quote him. The reason for this is, that he, too often writes a name of a hilt, like 'Udaipur hilt', but he does not explain why he thinks it is from Udaipur. The use of this diamond shaped hilt was widely spread, but although he had access to all the armouries due to his job, he does not even give a hint, so you either have to believe what he writes, or put a question mark.