Comparison of Decorations on Arms and non-Arms Objects

ALEX · 27th September 2009, 10:20 PM

A few examples of Turkish silver fittings and similar technique on other silver objects. The niello on a last scabbard matches the Van niello work on a cigarette case.

Jens Nordlunde · 28th September 2009, 02:06 PM

Alex, interesting examples you show, but does the book give any explanation of what the decoration represent, what kind of flowers are shown an so on?
Hers is another one, I don't know what kind of leaf it is, but it could be a palm leave. In Figiels auction catalogue there is a tolwar with a hilt decoration like this one.
Jens

Jim McDougall · 29th September 2009, 01:03 AM

Excellent work guys!!! These motifs definitely show important consistancies, and present distinct possibilities of aligning some potential regional preferences in these hilts.
I agree this should be placed in 'sticky' position in hopes of pursuing these motifs and comparisons further, please continue!!!

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 29th September 2009, 04:07 PM

Thank you Jim for making this thread a sticker.

I hope that others will join with their knowledge, so the thread will be a place where collectors interested in Indian weapons can go and learn from what we have found out.

I have written an article on Bundi katars, which will be published in South Asian Studies Journal no 25 in November. Those of you interested in katars can get the Journal, and hopefully enjoy the article. Here is the link to South Asian Studies http://www.basas.org.uk/journal.htm

Atlantia · 30th September 2009, 06:10 PM

Hi all,
I know I'm 'expanding' this discussion a little and I hope Alex will forgive me for this little 'aside'?
We have on occasion discussed fittings, scabbard mounts, incised designs etc, and conjectured on how they were produced.
With that in mind, I would like to share (again) my favourite Qajar style Persian bronze tray (which seems fitting in Alex thread as he has helped me so much in understanding it).

We know that this tray was produced in Isfahan in 1895. The style and quality wouldn't look out of place significantly earlier than that though.
Anyway, keep reading, my reasons will hopefully become clear...

Then, if you turn the tray over, on the undecorated back, there are clear signs of the beginnings of a different design, presumably abandoned in favour of this one.
Why is this interesting?
Because it was being 'drawn' in tiny hammered dots from a sharp needle/point.
Which led me back to the 'face' side and sure enough, in a few places you can see where lines have cut through lines of these tiny dots.
I know this isn't an 'earth shattering' revelation, but it does answer a few questions for me, and I hope others will be interested in how some of this metalwork was actually produced.

Please excuse the pictures of these 'dot' patterns, they are quite indistinct under the patina and I've had to alter the contrast etc, to show them a little more clearly.

Presumably, this is the same method (or one of the favoured ones) for producing similar quality designs in silver etc, I wonder if it was used on steel?

I always assumed that these designs would have been drawn onto the metal with something like engravers blue, then chiseled straight into the metal.
If you look at the picture showing the bird outline, there are around 150/200 dots in just that one tiny element. Estimate/multiply that to the smaller 3" picture of the front side, even with basic outlines it would be several thousand dots, which would equate to (by my estimate) well over 100,000 across the whole tray.
And thats before the engraver even started to 'join the dots' and cut in the detail.
Even a small area such as would be needed for a scabbard mount, or a simpler design cut into the harder steel of a helmet would be an incredibly time consuming process.
Which started me wondering if the engraver had a mechanical tool of some sort with a vibrating point?

Jens Nordlunde · 1st October 2009, 03:51 PM

I think this thread belongs here as well, so before it gets lost - here it is http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=Salumbar
G. N. Pant's name is mentioned now and again, but although I have some of his books, I am not too happy to quote him. The reason for this is, that he, too often writes a name of a hilt, like 'Udaipur hilt', but he does not explain why he thinks it is from Udaipur. The use of this diamond shaped hilt was widely spread, but although he had access to all the armouries due to his job, he does not even give a hint, so you either have to believe what he writes, or put a question mark.

Jens Nordlunde · 16th December 2009, 07:47 PM

Like I said, on this thread the information’s will be dripping in. Sometimes there will be long between the ‘drippings’ and sometimes not so long, but I feel sure that we will gather important information’s.

The zigzag design was used all over India, like it was in many other countries – through many centuries, but sometimes you find something, wich combines the designs, and I think I have found this in Deccan.

Zebrowski, Mark: Gold, Silver and Bronze from Mughal India. Alexandria Press, London 1997. Shows a plate from the 17th century, and on the hilt of my tulwar the same design is shown. Zebrowski does not only say it is from Deccan, he also says it is from Bidar – the hart of Bidri ware. The hilt is not bidri, but it has the same design, so it is likely to come from the same district.

I don’t think the hilt is 17th century, maybe rather 18th century, but the design is the same.

ALEX · 28th April 2010, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Alex, interesting examples you show, but does the book give any explanation of what the decoration represent, what kind of flowers are shown an so on?
Hers is another one, I don't know what kind of leaf it is, but it could be a palm leave. In Figiels auction catalogue there is a tolwar with a hilt decoration like this one.
Jens

Jens, unfortunately the books on arms do not provide the same level of details and references as books on other areas of Islamic/Indian Arts. More material can be found in books on architecture, textile, tiles, etc. and much information can be drawn from them and applied to arms decoration. Let me venture one example:

Attached image is of Indian, 18th Century carved sandstone column base with stylised and overlapping acanthus leaves.

The shoulder is decorated with large lotus petals. Their simple and generous proportions contrasting with the intricacy of the acanthus leaves below. The column base is surmounted by an eight-petalled floral dais.

The carving in yellow sandstone and the design of this column base are characteristic of the Rajasthani city of Jaisalmer, a city of mystic beauty enclosed within the walls of an exterior fortress with ninety-nine projecting bastions. Built by Jaisal in the twelfth century, it includes a palace and various groups of residences, all characterised by balconies, windows and entrances carved so exquisitely as to form a true jewel of Rajput craftsmanship.

References:
1. Bianca Maria Alfieri, Islamic Architecture of the Indian Subcontinent, 2000, p. 286 and the photograph on p. 284 in which Alfieri illustrates the balconies, windows and carved decoration characteristic of the style of Jaisalmer with its many contrasting tiers carved with a multiplicity of designs as seen on this column base.

TVV · 30th June 2010, 04:56 AM

Some comparison between the decoration and manufacturing techniques of yataghans and women ornaments collected in Bulgaria. Also included a barrel band from an old Bulgarian rifle. Many thanks to my friend, who provided the images.

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd July 2010, 09:52 PM

Hi Alex,

Yes the chevron and the acanthus designs are both very interesting and were used a lot.

Building decorations, textiles, miniatures and many other daily things should be used to find the sources to the weapon decoration.

This, together with a lot of other things, will, if can cope with it all, give you a reasonable idea about from where the weapon may origin.

Happy hunting

Jens

Tatyana Dianova · 7th July 2010, 08:03 AM

I have a curious dagger which was discussed here (please scroll down a bit to see it) :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5784

The most interesting part of it is a stamped upper mount of the scabbard, which depicts three women. All parts fit to each other perfectly and look like they were put together a very long time ago. The seller told me that this dagger was the part of a private German collection put together at the beginning of the 20th century.

Yesterday I seem to have found the key to the mystery, where this dagger was made (or at least put together)! Take a look at the picture of the Hindu silver amulet from the northern India, rural Himachal Pradesh. These amulets are very typical for this region and appear only there, so I am pretty sure that the dagger originated there too!

These amulets depict in a very distinctive manner three figures, side by side, wearing full skirts, and 3-lobed hats or crowns. It is a traditional folk image representing the Mother Goddess (Hoi Mata) as a trinity. Hoi Mata presides over the well being of the family in the local folk beliefs. (Sources: Oppi Untracht “Traditional Jewelry Of India”, Google :-)

Tim Simmons · 7th July 2010, 09:42 AM

Great stuff. It might still be Kalash an hindu island in Chitral? The work on the handle is very much "Khyber style" for want of better words.

27th September 2009, 10:20 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	A few examples of Turkish silver fittings and similar technique on other silver objects. The niello on a last scabbard matches the Van niello work on a cigarette case. Attached Images

28th September 2009, 02:06 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Alex, interesting examples you show, but does the book give any explanation of what the decoration represent, what kind of flowers are shown an so on? Hers is another one, I don't know what kind of leaf it is, but it could be a palm leave. In Figiels auction catalogue there is a tolwar with a hilt decoration like this one. Jens Attached Images

30th September 2009, 06:10 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi all, I know I'm 'expanding' this discussion a little and I hope Alex will forgive me for this little 'aside'? We have on occasion discussed fittings, scabbard mounts, incised designs etc, and conjectured on how they were produced. With that in mind, I would like to share (again) my favourite Qajar style Persian bronze tray (which seems fitting in Alex thread as he has helped me so much in understanding it). We know that this tray was produced in Isfahan in 1895. The style and quality wouldn't look out of place significantly earlier than that though. Anyway, keep reading, my reasons will hopefully become clear... Then, if you turn the tray over, on the undecorated back, there are clear signs of the beginnings of a different design, presumably abandoned in favour of this one. Why is this interesting? Because it was being 'drawn' in tiny hammered dots from a sharp needle/point. Which led me back to the 'face' side and sure enough, in a few places you can see where lines have cut through lines of these tiny dots. I know this isn't an 'earth shattering' revelation, but it does answer a few questions for me, and I hope others will be interested in how some of this metalwork was actually produced. Please excuse the pictures of these 'dot' patterns, they are quite indistinct under the patina and I've had to alter the contrast etc, to show them a little more clearly. Presumably, this is the same method (or one of the favoured ones) for producing similar quality designs in silver etc, I wonder if it was used on steel? I always assumed that these designs would have been drawn onto the metal with something like engravers blue, then chiseled straight into the metal. If you look at the picture showing the bird outline, there are around 150/200 dots in just that one tiny element. Estimate/multiply that to the smaller 3" picture of the front side, even with basic outlines it would be several thousand dots, which would equate to (by my estimate) well over 100,000 across the whole tray. And thats before the engraver even started to 'join the dots' and cut in the detail. Even a small area such as would be needed for a scabbard mount, or a simpler design cut into the harder steel of a helmet would be an incredibly time consuming process. Which started me wondering if the engraver had a mechanical tool of some sort with a vibrating point? Last edited by Atlantia; 1st October 2009 at 05:32 PM.

16th December 2009, 07:47 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Like I said, on this thread the information’s will be dripping in. Sometimes there will be long between the ‘drippings’ and sometimes not so long, but I feel sure that we will gather important information’s. The zigzag design was used all over India, like it was in many other countries – through many centuries, but sometimes you find something, wich combines the designs, and I think I have found this in Deccan. Zebrowski, Mark: Gold, Silver and Bronze from Mughal India. Alexandria Press, London 1997. Shows a plate from the 17th century, and on the hilt of my tulwar the same design is shown. Zebrowski does not only say it is from Deccan, he also says it is from Bidar – the hart of Bidri ware. The hilt is not bidri, but it has the same design, so it is likely to come from the same district. I don’t think the hilt is 17th century, maybe rather 18th century, but the design is the same. Attached Images

30th June 2010, 04:56 AM	#9
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Some comparison between the decoration and manufacturing techniques of yataghans and women ornaments collected in Bulgaria. Also included a barrel band from an old Bulgarian rifle. Many thanks to my friend, who provided the images. Attached Images

29th September 2009, 01:03 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Excellent work guys!!! These motifs definitely show important consistancies, and present distinct possibilities of aligning some potential regional preferences in these hilts. I agree this should be placed in 'sticky' position in hopes of pursuing these motifs and comparisons further, please continue!!! All the best, Jim

29th September 2009, 04:07 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you Jim for making this thread a sticker. I hope that others will join with their knowledge, so the thread will be a place where collectors interested in Indian weapons can go and learn from what we have found out. I have written an article on Bundi katars, which will be published in South Asian Studies Journal no 25 in November. Those of you interested in katars can get the Journal, and hopefully enjoy the article. Here is the link to South Asian Studies http://www.basas.org.uk/journal.htm

1st October 2009, 03:51 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I think this thread belongs here as well, so before it gets lost - here it is http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=Salumbar G. N. Pant's name is mentioned now and again, but although I have some of his books, I am not too happy to quote him. The reason for this is, that he, too often writes a name of a hilt, like 'Udaipur hilt', but he does not explain why he thinks it is from Udaipur. The use of this diamond shaped hilt was widely spread, but although he had access to all the armouries due to his job, he does not even give a hint, so you either have to believe what he writes, or put a question mark.

2nd July 2010, 09:52 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Alex, Yes the chevron and the acanthus designs are both very interesting and were used a lot. Building decorations, textiles, miniatures and many other daily things should be used to find the sources to the weapon decoration. This, together with a lot of other things, will, if can cope with it all, give you a reasonable idea about from where the weapon may origin. Happy hunting Jens

7th July 2010, 08:03 AM	#11
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 736	I have a curious dagger which was discussed here (please scroll down a bit to see it) : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5784 The most interesting part of it is a stamped upper mount of the scabbard, which depicts three women. All parts fit to each other perfectly and look like they were put together a very long time ago. The seller told me that this dagger was the part of a private German collection put together at the beginning of the 20th century. Yesterday I seem to have found the key to the mystery, where this dagger was made (or at least put together)! Take a look at the picture of the Hindu silver amulet from the northern India, rural Himachal Pradesh. These amulets are very typical for this region and appear only there, so I am pretty sure that the dagger originated there too! These amulets depict in a very distinctive manner three figures, side by side, wearing full skirts, and 3-lobed hats or crowns. It is a traditional folk image representing the Mother Goddess (Hoi Mata) as a trinity. Hoi Mata presides over the well being of the family in the local folk beliefs. (Sources: Oppi Untracht “Traditional Jewelry Of India”, Google :-) Attached Images

7th July 2010, 09:42 AM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Great stuff. It might still be Kalash an hindu island in Chitral? The work on the handle is very much "Khyber style" for want of better words.