Yemen Jambiya?

Oriental-Arms · 27th September 2009, 07:06 PM

The Hebrew letters does not make much sense. The letters are: ALEF, LAMED, yOD, NOON, HET and the last one is not clear. it might be sound like ELINAH ???, might be name, or the first three letters might sound as ELI - which means MY GOD.

ariel · 27th September 2009, 07:52 PM

The second one looks like Beth/Veth to me: there is a horizontal line at the bottom.
Still, I cannot guess what it means.
Avi- noakh?

ward · 27th September 2009, 09:06 PM

The problem with hebrew and arabic is that it is often written as in this case without voweling. So on top of figuring out the actual letters that are present, than you have to know what vowels to add to the word. I would think in this instance a name would be the most likely, but admit the one we translated to may not be correct. A religous inscription seems doubtful.

fernando · 27th September 2009, 10:19 PM

Thank you Artzi,
Thank you Ariel,
So i see it is quite complex. I will be digesting your sugestions.
Toda raba

.

I see your point Ward, in that it wouldn't be a religious allegory but, instead, the discreet engraving of the silver smith name. I have read somewhere that Hebrew smiths in Yemen (Temani) were allowed to craft janbiyya hilts but not the blades.

Fernando

ward · 27th September 2009, 10:47 PM

Jewish guilds tradionally have done much of the silver and gold work. Even today silver work or koftkagari would be done in a seperate workshop than the forging of blades. One workshop does not generally do all the work on a finished piece for sale but draws on a lot of subcontractors.

Gavin Nugent · 30th September 2009, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

Jewish guilds tradionally have done much of the silver and gold work. Even today silver work or koftkagari would be done in a seperate workshop than the forging of blades. One workshop does not generally do all the work on a finished piece for sale but draws on a lot of subcontractors.

The same can be said to today, the Diamond district in New York is the same, store 1, buy the diamond, store 2, buy the setting, store 3, have them put together, store 4, cleaned polished and valued.
It is interesting how tradition in many facets continues through the centuries.

Gav

ausjulius · 30th September 2009, 04:18 AM

i think there is a very good chance that in the past many of these were mad ein india as some posters suspect,, there is after all many yemanis living in india and pakistan and most major cities have to this day an "arab" ethnic population who has been there for a very long time,, most still wearing arab dress or at least on some occasions, most of these arabs are from yeman..
i do recall there was a huge immergration during the last 500 years to malaysia, indonesia, sudan and some other areas of east africa.. even to england a small amount in the 19th century, guess exstream over population has plagued yemen for a long time

Steve · 27th September 2009, 10:57 PM

Sorry to come in late but the time difference is a bit extreme.
I have had several of these Hodeida hilts translated and they have always come back " work of..." or "made by.." as Michael's did above. I have to go by these translations and take it that the name on the back of the hilt is the makers name. It has been a proud and long tradition for the makers name to be transcribed onto silver pieces, including jambiya hilts, scabbards and adornments- in fact it was law to do so at a time in Sana under the last Imams.

With regards to the hebrew inscription. It would appear from others posts, that you have another signature. Occasionally I have seen hebrew writing on silver jambiya pieces. Not often- usually the jewish name was written in arabic. A silver spacer is sometimes used between the inside of silver hilts and the blade - as in this case although the spacer seems a little odd in not covering the complete distance. Maybe this is the photo or something more is hidden under the resin.

As a guess I think the hebrew signature might refer to the provider of that silver piece or the person, with the division of labour in making these, put the blade into the handle and added the additional silver spacer? Just an opinion.

Steve

Michael Blalock · 28th September 2009, 12:42 AM

After taking another look, I see that the last name on Steve's Jambiya which I could not decipher earlier, is Midwan. The same name that is on the Jedda Jambiya that Khanjar1 posted. Since the 1st and last name are the same and the script and style of Jambiyas is so similar, they must be by the same maker.

Steve · 28th September 2009, 03:13 AM

well done, Sherlock.

fernando · 29th September 2009, 05:53 PM

Alright Steve,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

...Sorry to come in late but the time difference is a bit extreme.
I have had several of these Hodeida hilts translated and they have always come back " work of..." or "made by.." as Michael's did above. I have to go by these translations and take it that the name on the back of the hilt is the makers name. It has been a proud and long tradition for the makers name to be transcribed onto silver pieces, including jambiya hilts, scabbards and adornments- in fact it was law to do so at a time in Sana under the last Imams...

So it is the handle maker's name. As we say over here: against facts there are no arguments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

...With regards to the hebrew inscription. It would appear from others posts, that you have another signature. Occasionally I have seen hebrew writing on silver jambiya pieces. Not often- usually the jewish name was written in arabic. A silver spacer is sometimes used between the inside of silver hilts and the blade - as in this case although the spacer seems a little odd in not covering the complete distance. Maybe this is the photo or something more is hidden under the resin....

I see your point. There is indeed a silver mount all around, between the handle and the tang; but it looks as, instead of its purpose being to cover the resin space, the intention was more to use it as a fixing wedge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

...As a guess I think the hebrew signature might refer to the provider of that silver piece or the person, with the division of labour in making these, put the blade into the handle and added the additional silver spacer? Just an opinion.

I see; a sort of hallmark from the knife setting operator.

Then in this case we would have an Arabic guy making the handle and a Jewish fitter mounting the weapon ... and potentially another smith forging the blade

.
I know that very often weapons are the result of a cocktail of smiths; but i wasn't expecting for this sequence, though

Fernando

spiral · 29th September 2009, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Then in this case we would have an Arabic guy making the handle and a Jewish fitter mounting the weapon ... and potentially another smith forging the blade

.

From what I have read of the Yemeni jambiya craftsman such a scenario would be typicle, also other people to make the wooden scabbard, a woman to stich an embroided belt & a leather smith to make that into a complete belt. etc.etc.

Interesting no ones illustrated my favorite type the classic Sana T shape grip in translucent yellow rhino horn, I beleve the most expesive jambiya in the world had a similar shaped handle. {& a worthy provenance off course.} & that it one of the most sought after type of handle amongst, judges & politicians in the Yemen?

Here is one from Artzi`s site.

Spiral

27th September 2009, 07:06 PM	#1
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Hebrew Translation The Hebrew letters does not make much sense. The letters are: ALEF, LAMED, yOD, NOON, HET and the last one is not clear. it might be sound like ELINAH ???, might be name, or the first three letters might sound as ELI - which means MY GOD.

27th September 2009, 10:19 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Artzi, Thank you Ariel, So i see it is quite complex. I will be digesting your sugestions. Toda raba . I see your point Ward, in that it wouldn't be a religious allegory but, instead, the discreet engraving of the silver smith name. I have read somewhere that Hebrew smiths in Yemen (Temani) were allowed to craft janbiyya hilts but not the blades. Fernando Last edited by fernando; 27th September 2009 at 10:42 PM.

27th September 2009, 07:52 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The second one looks like Beth/Veth to me: there is a horizontal line at the bottom. Still, I cannot guess what it means. Avi- noakh?

27th September 2009, 09:06 PM	#3
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	The problem with hebrew and arabic is that it is often written as in this case without voweling. So on top of figuring out the actual letters that are present, than you have to know what vowels to add to the word. I would think in this instance a name would be the most likely, but admit the one we translated to may not be correct. A religous inscription seems doubtful.

27th September 2009, 10:47 PM	#5
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Jewish guilds tradionally have done much of the silver and gold work. Even today silver work or koftkagari would be done in a seperate workshop than the forging of blades. One workshop does not generally do all the work on a finished piece for sale but draws on a lot of subcontractors.

30th September 2009, 04:18 AM	#7
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 439	i think there is a very good chance that in the past many of these were mad ein india as some posters suspect,, there is after all many yemanis living in india and pakistan and most major cities have to this day an "arab" ethnic population who has been there for a very long time,, most still wearing arab dress or at least on some occasions, most of these arabs are from yeman.. i do recall there was a huge immergration during the last 500 years to malaysia, indonesia, sudan and some other areas of east africa.. even to england a small amount in the 19th century, guess exstream over population has plagued yemen for a long time

27th September 2009, 10:57 PM	#8
Steve Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sydney Posts: 58	Sorry to come in late but the time difference is a bit extreme. I have had several of these Hodeida hilts translated and they have always come back " work of..." or "made by.." as Michael's did above. I have to go by these translations and take it that the name on the back of the hilt is the makers name. It has been a proud and long tradition for the makers name to be transcribed onto silver pieces, including jambiya hilts, scabbards and adornments- in fact it was law to do so at a time in Sana under the last Imams. With regards to the hebrew inscription. It would appear from others posts, that you have another signature. Occasionally I have seen hebrew writing on silver jambiya pieces. Not often- usually the jewish name was written in arabic. A silver spacer is sometimes used between the inside of silver hilts and the blade - as in this case although the spacer seems a little odd in not covering the complete distance. Maybe this is the photo or something more is hidden under the resin. As a guess I think the hebrew signature might refer to the provider of that silver piece or the person, with the division of labour in making these, put the blade into the handle and added the additional silver spacer? Just an opinion. Steve

28th September 2009, 12:42 AM	#9
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	After taking another look, I see that the last name on Steve's Jambiya which I could not decipher earlier, is Midwan. The same name that is on the Jedda Jambiya that Khanjar1 posted. Since the 1st and last name are the same and the script and style of Jambiyas is so similar, they must be by the same maker.

28th September 2009, 03:13 AM	#10
Steve Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sydney Posts: 58	well done, Sherlock.