Plz help with ID of 2 Daggers

Justin · 13th May 2005, 01:35 AM

Not broken at all except that on bone scale is cracked, but nothing is missing,my first thought was actually that with an I shaped hilt it would be very much like a 'Zanzibar Sword'.

For comparison:

ariel · 13th May 2005, 02:27 AM

The first one is a typical Turkish dagger from the Trabzon area, a close relation of my avatar, the Laz Bicaq.
These daggers are characterized by a complex system of fullers and I can clearly see it on your pic.
In Timonium, I saw one with a handle wrapped with thin reddish and green leather thongs, exactly in the manner of the classic Black Sea Yataghan's scabbard, and with leather "ears" over the bolster, also just like BSY (Laz Bicaq). I almost wanted to buy it just as the "missing link", but the price was exorbitant.

tom hyle · 13th May 2005, 10:56 AM

The Zanzibar hilt is quite differently shaped, the ends not curving inward to grip the hand; the closest E African/etc. equivalent to such hilt would probably be the X handle Hadendoa daggers. Less relevant, as it is not broken off. The double-line zigzag on the blade is something I see on a lot of Berbese work. The multipart pinned hilt construction reminds me of choora though. I think it's a fairly modern piece, and possibly of multicultural influence.
I don't know that I'd call the other one a dagger. Dagger-knife, maybe; it has features meant for violence, but overall was probably carried for every day cutting tasks. Seems rather on the kard side of things. The recurved blade seems regionally appropriate. Nice looking blade.

Ian · 13th May 2005, 12:11 PM

Hi Justin:

Your second knife with the bone/ivory handle is from Turkey, probably early 20th C. There is an identical example shown in Levine, p.481.*

Here is Levine's description: "About 15 inches overall. Curved blade with arabic inscription. Hook-like pommel and guard of ebony. Brass sheath. 19th-20th centuries."

I know Mike D. has a copy of Levine with details of this knife.

Ian.

----------------------------------------

* Bernard Levine. Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values. Fifth edition. Krause Publication, Iola, WI. 2001

erlikhan · 13th May 2005, 01:14 PM

the 2nd is from Turkey,and yes, early 20th c. They are called "saldirma" (translation can be "for offense") , or "Surmene" , after the town of Trabzon province in Black sea region, where they were most popular, in 20th c. But before that era, the model was widely used not restricted to any region, but whole Turkey and Balkans. I attach one's picture. The scabbard is not completely original, has changed some, but roughly ok. to give some idea. They were formed, two or three similar knives in sibgle scabbard. Older ones usually can have dragon on the tip of scabbard. I have seen one brass scabbard with three holes for knives, small like yours, even far smaller, classical dragon tip, found in a village tumulus from Seljuks ,13-14th c. in close past ,early 20th c., i think they were preferred by gangs,bandits, street fighters, with main advantages of lightness and ability to just wound someone instead of killing, so that you dont get sentenced.

Justin · 13th May 2005, 01:46 PM

Ariel:I thought there was some resemblance to the black sea yataghan,Im glad that you backed that up for me,thanks{now if I can just find a blck sea yat to go with it

)

erlikhan:which one are you talking about,the one with fullers?or the one with the bone?Im getting confused now that it seems they are both Turkish.

Thanks Ian and Tom this is turning out to be a very helpful thread and I appreciate everyones comments.{Ian Ill have to ask Mike about that,I dont recall seeing that book but knowing Mike it may very well be stashed away somewhere,like most of us he has to dig through swords and knives to find his books

)

tom hyle · 13th May 2005, 01:58 PM

erlikhan, I'm pretty sure you're referring to the first of Justin's pieces, not the second? The pieces you show are rather different from either. Most notable with reference to the (Turkic?) flattened flat tang handles, while Justin's has round stalk tang handle. One of those you show is clearly a knife, or bichaq, while the other has the attenuated point associated with some violent forms. Justin's is broad at the tip, but also reasonably stabby, especially with its swedged spine/false edge (IMHO it's a superior weapon, but the super-narrow attenuated tip is clearly considered a violent feature in those cultures that employ it, while the broader tip is nonspecified. The even broader tip on the bichaq type seen here is not really for stabbing, though, much like a screwdriver or a "Roman" point it would go in to belly or thigh well enough. Justin's recurve seems different than either of yours. These may be simply variations with time and purpose; the ethnicity may be the same; the knives are rather different. I'd love to see pics of more examples of the other; the resemblance to the Indian dagger (chilanum?) in the curl of the ends of the upper and lower guards is striking, though as I've mentioned, some khoumiyas also exhibit a similar feature at the pommel.

erlikhan · 13th May 2005, 03:13 PM

1st..2nd.. right, I mean the one he mentions as "from Turkey".

. The handles are different ,correct. But I am 100 % sure both his one and the one I show are from the same Black sea region and same mentality. Check the fullers and proportions. I have seen both type handled and bladed samples. Just my assumption , is that flat, yataghan like handles can be older than the round ones,perhaps 19th c.,and then in 20th c., classical etnoghraphic weaponry decoration styles started to leave their place to easier types . The small one in my picture is more a tool, to cut something etc. , it could work good for something in that region where is dense woodland . As you say, his sample looks a bit more violent , perhaps closer to what I told about the early 20th c. usage of these knives. I attach 2 more samples, round and flat handled, both from the same region.
regards

13th May 2005, 01:35 AM	#1
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 178	Not broken at all except that on bone scale is cracked, but nothing is missing,my first thought was actually that with an I shaped hilt it would be very much like a 'Zanzibar Sword'. For comparison: Attached Images

13th May 2005, 01:14 PM	#5
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	the 2nd is from Turkey,and yes, early 20th c. They are called "saldirma" (translation can be "for offense") , or "Surmene" , after the town of Trabzon province in Black sea region, where they were most popular, in 20th c. But before that era, the model was widely used not restricted to any region, but whole Turkey and Balkans. I attach one's picture. The scabbard is not completely original, has changed some, but roughly ok. to give some idea. They were formed, two or three similar knives in sibgle scabbard. Older ones usually can have dragon on the tip of scabbard. I have seen one brass scabbard with three holes for knives, small like yours, even far smaller, classical dragon tip, found in a village tumulus from Seljuks ,13-14th c. in close past ,early 20th c., i think they were preferred by gangs,bandits, street fighters, with main advantages of lightness and ability to just wound someone instead of killing, so that you dont get sentenced. Attached Images Last edited by erlikhan; 13th May 2005 at 03:16 PM.

13th May 2005, 01:58 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	erlikhan, I'm pretty sure you're referring to the first of Justin's pieces, not the second? The pieces you show are rather different from either. Most notable with reference to the (Turkic?) flattened flat tang handles, while Justin's has round stalk tang handle. One of those you show is clearly a knife, or bichaq, while the other has the attenuated point associated with some violent forms. Justin's is broad at the tip, but also reasonably stabby, especially with its swedged spine/false edge (IMHO it's a superior weapon, but the super-narrow attenuated tip is clearly considered a violent feature in those cultures that employ it, while the broader tip is nonspecified. The even broader tip on the bichaq type seen here is not really for stabbing, though, much like a screwdriver or a "Roman" point it would go in to belly or thigh well enough. Justin's recurve seems different than either of yours. These may be simply variations with time and purpose; the ethnicity may be the same; the knives are rather different. I'd love to see pics of more examples of the other; the resemblance to the Indian dagger (chilanum?) in the curl of the ends of the upper and lower guards is striking, though as I've mentioned, some khoumiyas also exhibit a similar feature at the pommel. Last edited by tom hyle; 13th May 2005 at 02:09 PM.

13th May 2005, 03:13 PM	#8
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	1st..2nd.. right, I mean the one he mentions as "from Turkey". . The handles are different ,correct. But I am 100 % sure both his one and the one I show are from the same Black sea region and same mentality. Check the fullers and proportions. I have seen both type handled and bladed samples. Just my assumption , is that flat, yataghan like handles can be older than the round ones,perhaps 19th c.,and then in 20th c., classical etnoghraphic weaponry decoration styles started to leave their place to easier types . The small one in my picture is more a tool, to cut something etc. , it could work good for something in that region where is dense woodland . As you say, his sample looks a bit more violent , perhaps closer to what I told about the early 20th c. usage of these knives. I attach 2 more samples, round and flat handled, both from the same region. regards Attached Images

13th May 2005, 02:27 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The first one is a typical Turkish dagger from the Trabzon area, a close relation of my avatar, the Laz Bicaq. These daggers are characterized by a complex system of fullers and I can clearly see it on your pic. In Timonium, I saw one with a handle wrapped with thin reddish and green leather thongs, exactly in the manner of the classic Black Sea Yataghan's scabbard, and with leather "ears" over the bolster, also just like BSY (Laz Bicaq). I almost wanted to buy it just as the "missing link", but the price was exorbitant.

13th May 2005, 10:56 AM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The Zanzibar hilt is quite differently shaped, the ends not curving inward to grip the hand; the closest E African/etc. equivalent to such hilt would probably be the X handle Hadendoa daggers. Less relevant, as it is not broken off. The double-line zigzag on the blade is something I see on a lot of Berbese work. The multipart pinned hilt construction reminds me of choora though. I think it's a fairly modern piece, and possibly of multicultural influence. I don't know that I'd call the other one a dagger. Dagger-knife, maybe; it has features meant for violence, but overall was probably carried for every day cutting tasks. Seems rather on the kard side of things. The recurved blade seems regionally appropriate. Nice looking blade.

13th May 2005, 12:11 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Hi Justin: Your second knife with the bone/ivory handle is from Turkey, probably early 20th C. There is an identical example shown in Levine, p.481.* Here is Levine's description: "About 15 inches overall. Curved blade with arabic inscription. Hook-like pommel and guard of ebony. Brass sheath. 19th-20th centuries." I know Mike D. has a copy of Levine with details of this knife. Ian. ---------------------------------------- * Bernard Levine. Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values. Fifth edition. Krause Publication, Iola, WI. 2001

13th May 2005, 01:46 PM	#6
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 178	Ariel:I thought there was some resemblance to the black sea yataghan,Im glad that you backed that up for me,thanks{now if I can just find a blck sea yat to go with it ) erlikhan:which one are you talking about,the one with fullers?or the one with the bone?Im getting confused now that it seems they are both Turkish. Thanks Ian and Tom this is turning out to be a very helpful thread and I appreciate everyones comments.{Ian Ill have to ask Mike about that,I dont recall seeing that book but knowing Mike it may very well be stashed away somewhere,like most of us he has to dig through swords and knives to find his books )