Comparison of Decorations on Arms and non-Arms Objects

[Jim McDougall]

As Jens has very astutely observed, the true study of the history of weapons is not just in the books written on weapons themselves, but particularly in arts, crafts and all forms of material culture of the cultures who used them.

This is the absolute beauty of the study of historical weapons, in that they are often icons reflecting important elements and changes in the cultures overall, as well as beliefs and traditions in the decorative motifs.

Thank you Alex for posting this excellent topic, and moving to permanent status is indeed a great idea.

[Atlantia]

well gentlemen. I thought I'd make my first submission to this thread a start of the rather large area of Indian foliate designs.
The 'Foliage and flowers' pattern is popular throughout India and features on a huge variety of weapons and metalwork.
I thought I'd start with one of the most recognisable versions of it, the Kashmiri rosette.
Here is a composite picture of three non-weapon items, the top is a silver bowl, the pattern is (IMHO) classic form and the bowl itself is also in the shape of a rosette when you look down on it. The second is a large 2' copper charger depicting the love story of Krishna and Radha, the entire background is the rosette pattern again, but a little cruder than the silver bowl. Thirdly, my beloved copper Hamsa bird, which has a 'skin' tattooed with a more stylised version of the pattern, but I do still think its from Kashmir (Unless you know better?)
Hopefully if we all contribute, this thread will be a great 'resource' for helping identify weapons specific regions from their decorative styles.

[Jens Nordlunde]

On the first picture you see a huqqa (Zebrowski, 1997, p. 65) and a hilt. On top of the huqqa the decoration is the same as on top of the grip. These decorations are (Stronge, 1985, pp. 56-57) palmetto leaves.

About the huqqa Zebrowski writes, that he was tempted to assign the huqqa to the 17th century, but due to the female figures wearing dresses and strike the pose of Mewar portraits of the early 18th century, the huqqa can’t be 17th century. This means that the decoration with palmetto leaves goes further back that the early 18th century. So all we have on the hilt so far is the palmetto decoration and a possible place of origin – but no proof.

Further research will show if, when and where this decoration was used. A good place to start could be to dig into which clan or sub clan the rulers from Mewar came, and look rulers of the same clan/sub clan in the other states of Rajasthan.

On the other picture is a salver shown with the same kind of decoration; here the place of origin is given to Deccan(?)

Mark Zebrowski: Gold, silver & Bronze from Mughal India. 1997.

Susan Stronge: Bidri Ware. V&A Museum, 1985.

[ALEX]

Jens, here is another palmetto pattern on a carved ivory handle of 18th Century Mughal dagger. Also, have you noticed that Atlantia's Kashmiri bowl above shows the same leaves?

[ALEX]

A few examples of Turkish silver fittings and similar technique on other silver objects. The niello on a last scabbard matches the Van niello work on a cigarette case.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Alex, interesting examples you show, but does the book give any explanation of what the decoration represent, what kind of flowers are shown an so on?
Hers is another one, I don't know what kind of leaf it is, but it could be a palm leave. In Figiels auction catalogue there is a tolwar with a hilt decoration like this one.
Jens

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent work guys!!! These motifs definitely show important consistancies, and present distinct possibilities of aligning some potential regional preferences in these hilts.
I agree this should be placed in 'sticky' position in hopes of pursuing these motifs and comparisons further, please continue!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you Jim for making this thread a sticker.

I hope that others will join with their knowledge, so the thread will be a place where collectors interested in Indian weapons can go and learn from what we have found out.

I have written an article on Bundi katars, which will be published in South Asian Studies Journal no 25 in November. Those of you interested in katars can get the Journal, and hopefully enjoy the article. Here is the link to South Asian Studies http://www.basas.org.uk/journal.htm

[Atlantia]

Hi all,
I know I'm 'expanding' this discussion a little and I hope Alex will forgive me for this little 'aside'?
We have on occasion discussed fittings, scabbard mounts, incised designs etc, and conjectured on how they were produced.
With that in mind, I would like to share (again) my favourite Qajar style Persian bronze tray (which seems fitting in Alex thread as he has helped me so much in understanding it).

We know that this tray was produced in Isfahan in 1895. The style and quality wouldn't look out of place significantly earlier than that though.
Anyway, keep reading, my reasons will hopefully become clear...





Then, if you turn the tray over, on the undecorated back, there are clear signs of the beginnings of a different design, presumably abandoned in favour of this one.
Why is this interesting?
Because it was being 'drawn' in tiny hammered dots from a sharp needle/point.
Which led me back to the 'face' side and sure enough, in a few places you can see where lines have cut through lines of these tiny dots.
I know this isn't an 'earth shattering' revelation, but it does answer a few questions for me, and I hope others will be interested in how some of this metalwork was actually produced.

Please excuse the pictures of these 'dot' patterns, they are quite indistinct under the patina and I've had to alter the contrast etc, to show them a little more clearly.





Presumably, this is the same method (or one of the favoured ones) for producing similar quality designs in silver etc, I wonder if it was used on steel?

I always assumed that these designs would have been drawn onto the metal with something like engravers blue, then chiseled straight into the metal.
If you look at the picture showing the bird outline, there are around 150/200 dots in just that one tiny element. Estimate/multiply that to the smaller 3" picture of the front side, even with basic outlines it would be several thousand dots, which would equate to (by my estimate) well over 100,000 across the whole tray.
And thats before the engraver even started to 'join the dots' and cut in the detail.
Even a small area such as would be needed for a scabbard mount, or a simpler design cut into the harder steel of a helmet would be an incredibly time consuming process.
Which started me wondering if the engraver had a mechanical tool of some sort with a vibrating point?

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Alex, interesting examples you show, but does the book give any explanation of what the decoration represent, what kind of flowers are shown an so on?
Hers is another one, I don't know what kind of leaf it is, but it could be a palm leave. In Figiels auction catalogue there is a tolwar with a hilt decoration like this one.
Jens

Jens, unfortunately the books on arms do not provide the same level of details and references as books on other areas of Islamic/Indian Arts. More material can be found in books on architecture, textile, tiles, etc. and much information can be drawn from them and applied to arms decoration. Let me venture one example:

Attached image is of Indian, 18th Century carved sandstone column base with stylised and overlapping acanthus leaves.

The shoulder is decorated with large lotus petals. Their simple and generous proportions contrasting with the intricacy of the acanthus leaves below. The column base is surmounted by an eight-petalled floral dais.

The carving in yellow sandstone and the design of this column base are characteristic of the Rajasthani city of Jaisalmer, a city of mystic beauty enclosed within the walls of an exterior fortress with ninety-nine projecting bastions. Built by Jaisal in the twelfth century, it includes a palace and various groups of residences, all characterised by balconies, windows and entrances carved so exquisitely as to form a true jewel of Rajput craftsmanship.

References:
1. Bianca Maria Alfieri, Islamic Architecture of the Indian Subcontinent, 2000, p. 286 and the photograph on p. 284 in which Alfieri illustrates the balconies, windows and carved decoration characteristic of the style of Jaisalmer with its many contrasting tiers carved with a multiplicity of designs as seen on this column base.

[TVV]

Some comparison between the decoration and manufacturing techniques of yataghans and women ornaments collected in Bulgaria. Also included a barrel band from an old Bulgarian rifle. Many thanks to my friend, who provided the images.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Alex,

Yes the chevron and the acanthus designs are both very interesting and were used a lot.

Building decorations, textiles, miniatures and many other daily things should be used to find the sources to the weapon decoration.

This, together with a lot of other things, will, if can cope with it all, give you a reasonable idea about from where the weapon may origin.

Happy hunting

Jens