Tulwar Hilt Types

ariel · 6th September 2009, 09:29 PM

wrong posting

ALEX · 8th September 2009, 09:44 PM

Why is it wrong posting? That's a nice "Standard Indian Hilt", Ariel:-)
Here is another, similar shaped hilt. My question is: would the decorations say more than the shape? I am sure they would, and this is where it gets really complicated:-)

Jens Nordlunde · 10th September 2009, 04:52 PM

Thank you Alex for showing the hilt. Is the decoration on the blade silver?

Few hilts can, to my knowledge, be put in a box labelled with the name of one of the Indian states. As far too many of the hilts were use over a very big area – they became fashion so to say.

When it comes to the decoration it is mostly the same. Lotus, roses, chrysanthemums, carnations, poppies and others are frequently seen, but here too it is, at best, very difficult – often even to recognise the flower, as working in metal is difficult and to this comes the artistic touch, plus, the artist had to fill the whole surface, so if he had some extra space he would have to invent a flower with extra petals or something else fitting into the scheme.

With this said, I agree with you, that it sometimes is possible to connect the hilt forms and the way the decoration is made. This, however, takes a lot of time, and you will need to see more hilts than most on this forum will ever see – and to be able to remember them and their details.

Attached a 'slim' version of a diamond shaped hilt.

ALEX · 11th September 2009, 09:16 PM

Jens,
The blade is only chiselled, it has no inlays. The handle MAY not be original to the blade, and later replacement.
You are right - it'd be an enormous academic undertaking to be able to relay geometrical decorations to geographical locations. I know of only one person who's able to come close:-)

Jens Nordlunde · 11th September 2009, 09:45 PM

Alex,

I find the hilt Ariel is showing very interesting. It is from Rajasthan, but it is made of copper - and this is interesting as few hilts made of copper comes from this area.

Long ago I thought that certain flowers could be related to certain areas – now I am not so sure any more, unless if you regard the areas as very big one – like Rajasthan. In some parts some flowers will be seen more often than in other areas, and the poppy seems to be very popular. However they may be made in different ways, so they can be difficult to recognise. what I think we should be looking for is a connection between the flowers/decoration and what it meant to the people at the time.

The hilt forms is almost the same, some hilts were traded and some looted, while others may have been made in a style different from what was common in that part of the country – this does not make it any easier. But if we collectors try long and hard enough, I believe that one day one of us will find a key to, at least some of the tilts.

Jens

ariel · 13th September 2009, 04:09 AM

Jens, many thanks for your input. I am not a dedicated collector of Indian swords, but could not resist this one ( moreover, when none of you, guys, seemed to jump into the fray :-)): this is the first and only copper-hilted tulwar I've seen ever.
Elgood writes that contact with iron seemed to pollute hands of Brahmins ( spiritually, of course) and heavy silvering and/or gilding was the way around the problem. Also, red copper was spiritually connected with fighting fervor.
Here we had a double whammy: gilded copper. Must have been viewed as totally "kosher" from the religious point of view:-) And a wootz blade must have been a nice cherry on top....
Any thoughts on age?

Rick · 13th September 2009, 10:33 PM

This might explain the (formerly) fully silver clad handle on my kirach .
Thanks Ariel .

8th September 2009, 09:44 PM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Why is it wrong posting? That's a nice "Standard Indian Hilt", Ariel:-) Here is another, similar shaped hilt. My question is: would the decorations say more than the shape? I am sure they would, and this is where it gets really complicated:-) Attached Images

10th September 2009, 04:52 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you Alex for showing the hilt. Is the decoration on the blade silver? Few hilts can, to my knowledge, be put in a box labelled with the name of one of the Indian states. As far too many of the hilts were use over a very big area – they became fashion so to say. When it comes to the decoration it is mostly the same. Lotus, roses, chrysanthemums, carnations, poppies and others are frequently seen, but here too it is, at best, very difficult – often even to recognise the flower, as working in metal is difficult and to this comes the artistic touch, plus, the artist had to fill the whole surface, so if he had some extra space he would have to invent a flower with extra petals or something else fitting into the scheme. With this said, I agree with you, that it sometimes is possible to connect the hilt forms and the way the decoration is made. This, however, takes a lot of time, and you will need to see more hilts than most on this forum will ever see – and to be able to remember them and their details. Attached a 'slim' version of a diamond shaped hilt. Attached Images

13th September 2009, 10:33 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	This might explain the (formerly) fully silver clad handle on my kirach . Thanks Ariel . Attached Images

6th September 2009, 09:29 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	wrong posting

11th September 2009, 09:16 PM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Jens, The blade is only chiselled, it has no inlays. The handle MAY not be original to the blade, and later replacement. You are right - it'd be an enormous academic undertaking to be able to relay geometrical decorations to geographical locations. I know of only one person who's able to come close:-)

11th September 2009, 09:45 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Alex, I find the hilt Ariel is showing very interesting. It is from Rajasthan, but it is made of copper - and this is interesting as few hilts made of copper comes from this area. Long ago I thought that certain flowers could be related to certain areas – now I am not so sure any more, unless if you regard the areas as very big one – like Rajasthan. In some parts some flowers will be seen more often than in other areas, and the poppy seems to be very popular. However they may be made in different ways, so they can be difficult to recognise. what I think we should be looking for is a connection between the flowers/decoration and what it meant to the people at the time. The hilt forms is almost the same, some hilts were traded and some looted, while others may have been made in a style different from what was common in that part of the country – this does not make it any easier. But if we collectors try long and hard enough, I believe that one day one of us will find a key to, at least some of the tilts. Jens

13th September 2009, 04:09 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jens, many thanks for your input. I am not a dedicated collector of Indian swords, but could not resist this one ( moreover, when none of you, guys, seemed to jump into the fray :-)): this is the first and only copper-hilted tulwar I've seen ever. Elgood writes that contact with iron seemed to pollute hands of Brahmins ( spiritually, of course) and heavy silvering and/or gilding was the way around the problem. Also, red copper was spiritually connected with fighting fervor. Here we had a double whammy: gilded copper. Must have been viewed as totally "kosher" from the religious point of view:-) And a wootz blade must have been a nice cherry on top.... Any thoughts on age?