Opinions on this sword

Jim McDougall · 28th August 2009, 08:10 AM

Hi Mark,
Nice acquisition!!! and extremely interesting. I think most of your observations are pretty well placed, and would agree with the period end of 18th c. to opening of 19th. This gives every impression of a private purchase hanger that reflects the construction style and features of the early British cutlasses and customs and other type service departments, from what I recall.
It does seem to be simply fashioned in almost 'blacksmith' grade, and the elements of the hilt are much lighter and less defined than the usual products. What strikes me as Spanish colonial is the blade, which has the characteristic uptick of the blade point as often seen on espada anchas of the end of the 18th century and into the 19th , this one more dramatic. The hilt however does not correspond to the usual guards on these, but leans more toward the British style. It is always tempting to consider another entry among the widening array of anomalies that seem to be associated with the "Spanish Main' of the Caribbean and Americas of this period.

I'll look forward to other observations while the research continues, and again, I really like these kinds of swords!! Look forward to learning more on this one.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 28th August 2009, 11:00 AM

Hello Jim! Thanks for coming in on this one. I see your point about the squared hilt being more toward the British pattern. I know this piece is a little rustic, but these private purchase types always attract my attention. Carribean...ahhh, now that would make me happy if it could be substantiated. I recall seeing a very primitive type sword similar to this listed as 'Cuban pirate', but that was in one of Fagan's catalogs, so...

Jim, you mention customs swords and police swords, which also had the ribbed iron grips such as boarding cutlass. I have a theory that these swords, which came after the said naval patterns, descended from them in an interesting way. In Annis 'Swords for Sea Service', there is an early cutlass with ribbed iron hilt and GR markings that was used by the West India dock authorities who guarded the ships and port. These authorities were both a division of maritime/naval power as well as the police/customs inspectors for the dock yards. I think it stands to reason that this is why we see the ribbed iron hilts on these type swords in the later 19th century. In any case, hope to research this sword a little more and await comments from others.

Gavin Nugent · 29th August 2009, 11:34 AM

Mark, Jim,

Far outside my scope of knowledge, but the blade in my limited knowledge of this unusual sword, almost has an oriental feel to it.
The tip looks like some naginata and the blade of the profile and diamond section looks like old line drawings of Chinese swords I have viewed.

My 2 cents.

Gav

M ELEY · 29th August 2009, 12:54 PM

Hello Gavin and thanks for commenting. It does indeed have an Oriental look to it and I'm sure that's why the seller was told by antiques dealers that it was "Middle Eastern". Having now received the blade, I still feel that it's probably Spanish colonial. The primitive wrought iron is thicker and thinner in places as it runs to the tip. Not to insult it, but the whole sword is "clunky" and hard to swing. I think it's just a made-from-scratch piece that some desparate pirate had made to attack ships with (Sorry, couldn't resist-

).
Jim, you mentioned the square iron guard being of the British pattern while the blade does indeed resemble some espada I have seen. Being that the West Indies both fell under these two countries influence, I wonder if this might be a combination of styles. Just a theory without proof, of course. For all I know, Gav might be right and this might be something else entirely.

Does anyone know when ribbed iron hilts such as this started? I'm again thinking late 18th and with the advent of boarding cutlass, but perhaps there are earlier examples?

Gavin Nugent · 29th August 2009, 01:29 PM

Just future proofing this post with some images of the sword

Gav

Jim McDougall · 30th August 2009, 12:43 AM

Hi Mark and Gav,
I think we're all basically on about the same page on this. It seems to be a very munitions grade example that is clearly of blacksmith quality, the crude and simple squared knuckleguard almost literally rings 'blacksmith'.
The construction is essentially of the turn of the century customs/ police sword design, but the cast, ribbed guard is remarkably narrow without the bulging profile intended to provide better hold for the hand.

The blade does reflect from a given point, the upturn which seems to be influenced by the parabolic curves of eastern sabres, but toward the end of the 18th century, this was a commonly applied feature found on various European sabres. There were a number of prototypes and forms that sought to emulate the increased point of contact in slashing cuts by sometimes dramatic blade curves.
The frontier espada ancha carried a subtle version on the uptick point, and this type point is characteristic, but notably less dramatic than this example. I still think the blade, the crude forging notwithstanding, is more like Spanish colonial work of the end of the 18th into 19th c.

Good question on the cast ribbed grip, and though it seems introduced about turn of the century with the cutlasses (so called British M1804), these kinds of features dont just suddenly appear, so there must be earlier prototypes.
Need to check Neumann, and some of the other European sources.

Another cast weapon which found use not only in Spain and England, but became regular munitions grade equipment for almost every European army, was the familiar 'briquet'. These cast brass hilt hangers were simple, cheap, and ideal for equipping masses of 'other ranks'. They are considered a turn of the century type, but it seems they had actually been around some time before.
I know of an example of Spanish colonial handiwork utilizing a three bar guard of a cavalry sabre, the hilt of one of these briquets with the knucklebow removed, and the cut down dragoon broadsword blade of the familiar type often seen on early espada anchas and military swords.

It is well established that supplies into the frontiers of New Spain were hard to come by, and the constant lack of ammunition was one of the main reasons that the lance was such a primary weapon. The lack of other supplies for arming the auxiliary troops and maintaining servicability resulted in the few armourers in presidios using whatever supplies came in, with very little reaching the outposts.

Incongruent and essentially bastardized items such as this amalgam of parts were not unusual, nor were blacksmiths interpretations of weapons. While the experienced smiths in the presidios produced a basically identifiable form of hilt for espada anchas, with blades used in variation, the items with lesser skilled smiths in more remote regions must have been interesting to say the least.

It still does not seem unreasonable for someone in any of the ports in this thriving network through the Caribbean to have sought a simple, yet sturdy fighting weapon, or complement of them. Captains had to supply the arms lockers on thier ships, so a small store of these might have been produced as such.

As usual, just thinking out loud

what a fascinating weapon, and its trying to talk to us guys!

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 30th August 2009, 05:23 AM

Thank you gents for taking the time on this odd piece. Gav, I do appreciate you posting the original pics here and larger than they appeared in the auction at that! Thanks.
I looked all through my references, but with the exception of a very small section on "private purchase swords" in Gilkerson's, not much more to add. Ribbed iron seemed to be the thing for cutlass. I had forgotten about the ole' briquet, with its brass ribbed grip. Variations of this weapon made it to sea as well, particularly the French styles. Neumann didn't have any ribbed hilts that I saw, but did have a nice primitive colonial American hanger near the back of the sword section with a knucklebow exactly like mine- being a blacksmith-made bar bent in2 places like this one. I did find that old Fagan catalog with the sword similar to mine in blade curvature and crudeness (it's grip was nothing more than a built-up tang) with the rounded knuckle guard being just a plain bar pounded in this shape. It was listed as a 'probable' privateer sword made in the Caribbean, possibly by slaves (?) for some sailor of fortune. Of course, no actual data to back up the information. I think I will start researching just to see if there were any slave-made weapons in the Indies in any museums.

29th August 2009, 11:34 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Interesting Mark, Jim, Far outside my scope of knowledge, but the blade in my limited knowledge of this unusual sword, almost has an oriental feel to it. The tip looks like some naginata and the blade of the profile and diamond section looks like old line drawings of Chinese swords I have viewed. My 2 cents. Gav

29th August 2009, 01:29 PM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Some images Just future proofing this post with some images of the sword Gav Attached Images

28th August 2009, 08:10 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Hi Mark, Nice acquisition!!! and extremely interesting. I think most of your observations are pretty well placed, and would agree with the period end of 18th c. to opening of 19th. This gives every impression of a private purchase hanger that reflects the construction style and features of the early British cutlasses and customs and other type service departments, from what I recall. It does seem to be simply fashioned in almost 'blacksmith' grade, and the elements of the hilt are much lighter and less defined than the usual products. What strikes me as Spanish colonial is the blade, which has the characteristic uptick of the blade point as often seen on espada anchas of the end of the 18th century and into the 19th , this one more dramatic. The hilt however does not correspond to the usual guards on these, but leans more toward the British style. It is always tempting to consider another entry among the widening array of anomalies that seem to be associated with the "Spanish Main' of the Caribbean and Americas of this period. I'll look forward to other observations while the research continues, and again, I really like these kinds of swords!! Look forward to learning more on this one. All the best, Jim

28th August 2009, 11:00 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,159	Hello Jim! Thanks for coming in on this one. I see your point about the squared hilt being more toward the British pattern. I know this piece is a little rustic, but these private purchase types always attract my attention. Carribean...ahhh, now that would make me happy if it could be substantiated. I recall seeing a very primitive type sword similar to this listed as 'Cuban pirate', but that was in one of Fagan's catalogs, so... Jim, you mention customs swords and police swords, which also had the ribbed iron grips such as boarding cutlass. I have a theory that these swords, which came after the said naval patterns, descended from them in an interesting way. In Annis 'Swords for Sea Service', there is an early cutlass with ribbed iron hilt and GR markings that was used by the West India dock authorities who guarded the ships and port. These authorities were both a division of maritime/naval power as well as the police/customs inspectors for the dock yards. I think it stands to reason that this is why we see the ribbed iron hilts on these type swords in the later 19th century. In any case, hope to research this sword a little more and await comments from others.

29th August 2009, 12:54 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,159	Hello Gavin and thanks for commenting. It does indeed have an Oriental look to it and I'm sure that's why the seller was told by antiques dealers that it was "Middle Eastern". Having now received the blade, I still feel that it's probably Spanish colonial. The primitive wrought iron is thicker and thinner in places as it runs to the tip. Not to insult it, but the whole sword is "clunky" and hard to swing. I think it's just a made-from-scratch piece that some desparate pirate had made to attack ships with (Sorry, couldn't resist- ). Jim, you mentioned the square iron guard being of the British pattern while the blade does indeed resemble some espada I have seen. Being that the West Indies both fell under these two countries influence, I wonder if this might be a combination of styles. Just a theory without proof, of course. For all I know, Gav might be right and this might be something else entirely. Does anyone know when ribbed iron hilts such as this started? I'm again thinking late 18th and with the advent of boarding cutlass, but perhaps there are earlier examples?

30th August 2009, 12:43 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Hi Mark and Gav, I think we're all basically on about the same page on this. It seems to be a very munitions grade example that is clearly of blacksmith quality, the crude and simple squared knuckleguard almost literally rings 'blacksmith'. The construction is essentially of the turn of the century customs/ police sword design, but the cast, ribbed guard is remarkably narrow without the bulging profile intended to provide better hold for the hand. The blade does reflect from a given point, the upturn which seems to be influenced by the parabolic curves of eastern sabres, but toward the end of the 18th century, this was a commonly applied feature found on various European sabres. There were a number of prototypes and forms that sought to emulate the increased point of contact in slashing cuts by sometimes dramatic blade curves. The frontier espada ancha carried a subtle version on the uptick point, and this type point is characteristic, but notably less dramatic than this example. I still think the blade, the crude forging notwithstanding, is more like Spanish colonial work of the end of the 18th into 19th c. Good question on the cast ribbed grip, and though it seems introduced about turn of the century with the cutlasses (so called British M1804), these kinds of features dont just suddenly appear, so there must be earlier prototypes. Need to check Neumann, and some of the other European sources. Another cast weapon which found use not only in Spain and England, but became regular munitions grade equipment for almost every European army, was the familiar 'briquet'. These cast brass hilt hangers were simple, cheap, and ideal for equipping masses of 'other ranks'. They are considered a turn of the century type, but it seems they had actually been around some time before. I know of an example of Spanish colonial handiwork utilizing a three bar guard of a cavalry sabre, the hilt of one of these briquets with the knucklebow removed, and the cut down dragoon broadsword blade of the familiar type often seen on early espada anchas and military swords. It is well established that supplies into the frontiers of New Spain were hard to come by, and the constant lack of ammunition was one of the main reasons that the lance was such a primary weapon. The lack of other supplies for arming the auxiliary troops and maintaining servicability resulted in the few armourers in presidios using whatever supplies came in, with very little reaching the outposts. Incongruent and essentially bastardized items such as this amalgam of parts were not unusual, nor were blacksmiths interpretations of weapons. While the experienced smiths in the presidios produced a basically identifiable form of hilt for espada anchas, with blades used in variation, the items with lesser skilled smiths in more remote regions must have been interesting to say the least. It still does not seem unreasonable for someone in any of the ports in this thriving network through the Caribbean to have sought a simple, yet sturdy fighting weapon, or complement of them. Captains had to supply the arms lockers on thier ships, so a small store of these might have been produced as such. As usual, just thinking out loud what a fascinating weapon, and its trying to talk to us guys! All the best, Jim

30th August 2009, 05:23 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,159	Thank you gents for taking the time on this odd piece. Gav, I do appreciate you posting the original pics here and larger than they appeared in the auction at that! Thanks. I looked all through my references, but with the exception of a very small section on "private purchase swords" in Gilkerson's, not much more to add. Ribbed iron seemed to be the thing for cutlass. I had forgotten about the ole' briquet, with its brass ribbed grip. Variations of this weapon made it to sea as well, particularly the French styles. Neumann didn't have any ribbed hilts that I saw, but did have a nice primitive colonial American hanger near the back of the sword section with a knucklebow exactly like mine- being a blacksmith-made bar bent in2 places like this one. I did find that old Fagan catalog with the sword similar to mine in blade curvature and crudeness (it's grip was nothing more than a built-up tang) with the rounded knuckle guard being just a plain bar pounded in this shape. It was listed as a 'probable' privateer sword made in the Caribbean, possibly by slaves (?) for some sailor of fortune. Of course, no actual data to back up the information. I think I will start researching just to see if there were any slave-made weapons in the Indies in any museums.