Weapons of the Pandours, and Who Were They?

TVV · 26th August 2009, 05:27 AM

Interesting topic, of which I know almost nothing.
I believe the word pandour simply means a watchman, guardsman - a civilian, entrusted with the protection of something. I suspect this might actually be a Turkish word, though I am not sure.
Obviously, with time it became the name for Slavic irregulars from the Western Balkans, who served the Austrian Empire, much like the Christian counterpart of the Ottoman bashi-bazouks. As far as I know bashi bazouks were not salaried and their only payment was what they could plunder, and I guess the situation of the pandours was not much different. Trenck's men might have actually been given a fixed payment, since one of the charges against him was that he collected salary for fictitous men, but based on their actions, it seems that their involvement was motivated by loot.
In the 2008 Auctions Imperial catalogue, lot #292 is a curious sidearm with a karabela hilt and a yataghan blade. In the description, Charles Buttin is quoted to state that this is a rare model, issued to Baron Von Trenck's pandours. Whether this is true I do not know, but I know of at least one specimen in Bulgaria.
When I was in Vienna last year, in the hall dedicated to the wars of Austrian Succession, there were a few hirschfangers labeled as "Pandourenmesser" or Pandour knives. I remember that one of them had an inscription at the base of the blade, saying "Vivat Pandur". The quality of the picture is poor, but nevertheless, here it is.
Regards,
Teodor

Jim McDougall · 26th August 2009, 07:26 AM

Absolutely excellent Teodor!!! Thank you.
Good note on the example with Imperial Auctions last year, and I had forgotten about it...I dont have the catalog, perhaps someone might have a photo of this yataghan #292 ?

The Charles Buttin catalog (1933) does show 4 yataghan type blade sabres attributed to von Trenck's pandours (pp.73-74, nos. 217-220) as well as a hanger type sabre so attributed but with standard sabre type blade.
I think the Imperial Auctions item was attributed to pandours via the Buttin references but I am not certain if this was actually one of these swords. I do know that sabres with heavy forward curved yataghan type blades such as seen in the Buttin examples did exist in somewhat hirschfanger form in the latter 18th century used in similar 'freikorps' type units, possibly latter units of pandours following von Trencks.

The 'Vivat Pandur' inscription seems to have become popular as an inscription on sword, knife and bayonet blades about mid 18th century in recognition of the 'ferocity' of these notorious troops and in the sense of a slogan recalling this. According to Aylward ("Smallsword in England", London, 1945, p.42-43) the Solingen blade engravers in about mid 18th century began to abandon the well recognized image of a shock headed warrior brandishing a falchion with the famed 'Hannibal' name, and began using the Vivat Pandur theme.

R.D.C.Evans wrote on these blades somewhat in his "The Plug Bayonet" and in a number of articles.

Teodor thank you for the notes on the Bashi Bazouks, and it would seem that these Ottoman forces very much paralleled the pandours. In one reference it noted that the Turkish styles often used by the Croatian troops may have been due to the presence of the Turks there only 30 years prior to the Trenck formation of his troops.

The etymology I could find seems to have basically the same meaning of constable or guard, as they were in a sense much like security guards on large estates in many cases. Thier use as irregular, skirmishing troops grew out of these forces.

On a further note on the mummified remains of von Trenck, tonight I saw a documentary on the Capuchin Order in Sicily and thier practices of mummifying and venerating monks. One part mentioned similar Capuchine practice in Palermo, and I recalled that von Trenck had been born there.
Perhaps his established family ties and growing up there compelled the Capuchine monks in the monastery in Brno to include him with other aristocrats who were also mummified in the catacombs there.

Teodor, thank you for responding and for the great photo of these hirschfangers! For 'not knowing much' you sure added a lot!!! I really appreciate it. I hope we can draw some more interest on this and hopefully find more on the original pandours and subsequent troops.

All the best,
Jim

I just noticed the tips on the two swords on the left with 'clipped points' and recall that in blade typology illustrations in "Schwert Degen Sabel" (Gerhard Seifert, 1962)....this tip profile is termed 'pandour point'.

TVV · 26th August 2009, 07:51 AM

Jim,

Here is a quick snapshot of the sidearm featured in the Auctions Imperial catalogue. The provenance is Charles Buttin's own collection.

Best regards,
Teodor

Jim McDougall · 26th August 2009, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Jim,

Here is a quick snapshot of the sidearm featured in the Auctions Imperial catalogue. The provenance is Charles Buttin's own collection.

Best regards,
Teodor

Thank you so much Teodor for posting this!! It is absolutely breathtaking to see this incredibly rare weapon, and indeed it is one of the actual examples in the Buttin catalog.
What a perfect addition to this thread, and my congratulations to whoever acquired this piece!

All best regards,
Jim

26th August 2009, 05:27 AM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Interesting topic, of which I know almost nothing. I believe the word pandour simply means a watchman, guardsman - a civilian, entrusted with the protection of something. I suspect this might actually be a Turkish word, though I am not sure. Obviously, with time it became the name for Slavic irregulars from the Western Balkans, who served the Austrian Empire, much like the Christian counterpart of the Ottoman bashi-bazouks. As far as I know bashi bazouks were not salaried and their only payment was what they could plunder, and I guess the situation of the pandours was not much different. Trenck's men might have actually been given a fixed payment, since one of the charges against him was that he collected salary for fictitous men, but based on their actions, it seems that their involvement was motivated by loot. In the 2008 Auctions Imperial catalogue, lot #292 is a curious sidearm with a karabela hilt and a yataghan blade. In the description, Charles Buttin is quoted to state that this is a rare model, issued to Baron Von Trenck's pandours. Whether this is true I do not know, but I know of at least one specimen in Bulgaria. When I was in Vienna last year, in the hall dedicated to the wars of Austrian Succession, there were a few hirschfangers labeled as "Pandourenmesser" or Pandour knives. I remember that one of them had an inscription at the base of the blade, saying "Vivat Pandur". The quality of the picture is poor, but nevertheless, here it is. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

26th August 2009, 07:51 AM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Jim, Here is a quick snapshot of the sidearm featured in the Auctions Imperial catalogue. The provenance is Charles Buttin's own collection. Best regards, Teodor Attached Images

26th August 2009, 07:26 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Absolutely excellent Teodor!!! Thank you. Good note on the example with Imperial Auctions last year, and I had forgotten about it...I dont have the catalog, perhaps someone might have a photo of this yataghan #292 ? The Charles Buttin catalog (1933) does show 4 yataghan type blade sabres attributed to von Trenck's pandours (pp.73-74, nos. 217-220) as well as a hanger type sabre so attributed but with standard sabre type blade. I think the Imperial Auctions item was attributed to pandours via the Buttin references but I am not certain if this was actually one of these swords. I do know that sabres with heavy forward curved yataghan type blades such as seen in the Buttin examples did exist in somewhat hirschfanger form in the latter 18th century used in similar 'freikorps' type units, possibly latter units of pandours following von Trencks. The 'Vivat Pandur' inscription seems to have become popular as an inscription on sword, knife and bayonet blades about mid 18th century in recognition of the 'ferocity' of these notorious troops and in the sense of a slogan recalling this. According to Aylward ("Smallsword in England", London, 1945, p.42-43) the Solingen blade engravers in about mid 18th century began to abandon the well recognized image of a shock headed warrior brandishing a falchion with the famed 'Hannibal' name, and began using the Vivat Pandur theme. R.D.C.Evans wrote on these blades somewhat in his "The Plug Bayonet" and in a number of articles. Teodor thank you for the notes on the Bashi Bazouks, and it would seem that these Ottoman forces very much paralleled the pandours. In one reference it noted that the Turkish styles often used by the Croatian troops may have been due to the presence of the Turks there only 30 years prior to the Trenck formation of his troops. The etymology I could find seems to have basically the same meaning of constable or guard, as they were in a sense much like security guards on large estates in many cases. Thier use as irregular, skirmishing troops grew out of these forces. On a further note on the mummified remains of von Trenck, tonight I saw a documentary on the Capuchin Order in Sicily and thier practices of mummifying and venerating monks. One part mentioned similar Capuchine practice in Palermo, and I recalled that von Trenck had been born there. Perhaps his established family ties and growing up there compelled the Capuchine monks in the monastery in Brno to include him with other aristocrats who were also mummified in the catacombs there. Teodor, thank you for responding and for the great photo of these hirschfangers! For 'not knowing much' you sure added a lot!!! I really appreciate it. I hope we can draw some more interest on this and hopefully find more on the original pandours and subsequent troops. All the best, Jim I just noticed the tips on the two swords on the left with 'clipped points' and recall that in blade typology illustrations in "Schwert Degen Sabel" (Gerhard Seifert, 1962)....this tip profile is termed 'pandour point'.