Arsenic or realgar for Keris etching?

David · 18th August 2009, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

And about tangguh. Yes it's normal for a collector to want to index their pieces, and give a label how old the blade is... as we do on every thing in normal life too. With the keris it's sometimes for comercial value sometimes just to want to know... depends on the person.

I would agree that it is fairly normal collector behavior to want to know certain specifics about our collections including an idea of the age. I know that i always want to know that. I would like to suggest though that the "age" of a keris is not necessarily the "tangguh" of a keris. The tangguh might suggest an age and age might suggest a tangguh, but i do not believe they are exactly the same thing.
I would say that it probably is quite possible for knowledgeable people to estimate the age of a keris when held in hand because they can see the wear, feel the weight, feel the surfaces and compare style and materials with other keris that may come from the same time period. If they understand the pakem of the day and what was being presented as "correct" keris form at the time they can judge if the blade meets the standard of that particular kingdom. But is a poorly made village keris made in the late Mataram kingdom considered to be of that tangguh or simply in it if it doesn't meet the criteria and standard for keris of the day? The concept of tangguh was not created for such keris, was it?
The problem with using tangguh methods to judge the age of some keris is that the inticators for a particular tangguh may not exist in a poorly made village piece or the smith might be might have been working a a style that was out of mode for that tangguh. Even judging by materials used can be tricky. What if the keris was made from older keris? Then how do you date the metal type. In later years many keris are made from old material.
Unless we have some incredible luck with provenance for a keris we will never know the exact date of any keris. Often an expert can put a proper keris in it's proper tangguh, but often those tangguhs span a century or two. On some really high quality empu made keris where there are many known and specific inticators of that empus work someone might be able to narrow an origin down to the working life that specific empu. But this doesn't happen very often, i don't believe.
So with some of these village keris, if you are really lucky you might place it within a couple of hundred years, maybe put it in a century, and yes that is a range that the collector might be able to go with. But is it tangguh?

David · 18th August 2009, 03:47 AM

BTW Marco, i don't think that anyone has remark what a beautiful job you did staining these keris you have shown us.

A. G. Maisey · 18th August 2009, 02:53 PM

Michel, what you say about using tangguh to help form an impression, or as I would state it, a broad opinion of the classification of a blade is pretty much the way I would suggest that it could be used to satisfy the modern collector.

However, this is not the way it was intended to be used, it is more the way that it is practical to use it now.

Used correctly it can applied to give a good approximate indication of the age of a blade back to Mataram Sultan Agung. The closer we come to the present day, the more accurate it can be as an age indicator.

However, when we start to consider the older tangguh classifications it is perhaps best to simply acknowledge that these keris are old keris, and not couple the tangguh with any concept of actual time.

In Jawa you will find some people who will swear that tangguh Majapahit means that that keris was made during the Majapahit era.

You will find others --- others who are extremely knowledgeable ahli keris --- who will say "tangguh nggak sungguh".

To really understand the keris from a Javanese perspective it is absolutely essential to understand how the tangguh system works, and how to apply it. Regretably, the only way to gain this knowledge is to find somebody in Jawa who is prepared to teach you, and who has access to plenty of examples. Then give half a lifetime to the study.

For anybody outside Javanese society the best that can be hoped for is to gain a small understanding of the theory applied to reaching a classification.This theory really precludes the application of the system to lower quality pieces, but as I have already said, very few, if any , people use this system now as it was intended to be used.

However, there is one thing that is true:-

anybody who gives a tangguh classification to a blade must be able to support his opinion with reasoned argument by reference to the indicators he has used.

Far too often a person will say that a blade is tangguh such and such, and when pressed for his reason for saying this the best he can do is to simply say something like
"because its looks like such and such".

This is just not good enough.

However, this failure to provide reasoned argument is precisely what allows half educated "experts" to give tangguh to village quality blades.

If you stick with the indicators it is virtually impossible to classify a low quality piece within the tangguh structure.

kulbuntet · 19th August 2009, 12:12 AM

Oke Alan,

I undertand what you say. Like i posted before, it is a help to get an impression of a age or erra in witch the balde is made. Yes it feeds the need of the modern collector.. is there anny other need? I only can think of one other.. for museum display/indexing. But they can use carbon analisys combined with methodes that maybe could fall into tangguh classication.

You speak of using Tangguh to get a good approximate indication, how can i see this.. year/month? only year? decade? will it say anny thing about the region its made. Since like i posted before my understanding of the Tangguh system specialy with comparrison with normal giving a impression is verry limited.

Because of this i hope that the people on this forum would appriciate a Tangguh thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...9266#post89266). And hopping that you and maybe some others with knowledge of this system, would try to expain how it works and witch the indicators are.... Yes Alan i know what you now think, or what you wil respond. You told me already several times. That it is verry difficult to just expain and even more to do it on a forum or by mail, using photo's.. but please just give it a try. We the other forum members and keris entousiasts would realy appriciate the info given and try to lear us about it. I think that everybody understand that i wil not make us experts, or be able to use it propperly.. We have here in Holland a old saying.. translated...... A bullet not fired, is a target always missed.

David · 19th August 2009, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

We have here in Holland a old saying.. translated...... A bullet not fired, is a target always missed.

Yes, but if the gun is held in the wrong way, it might just take out the shooter.

kulbuntet · 19th August 2009, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes, but if the gun is held in the wrong way, it might just take out the shooter.

lol, yes... it depends on the holder of the gun.. and the gun manufacteror.. did they give the holder a manual? Did the holder read the manual?

kulbuntet · 19th August 2009, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes, but if the gun is held in the wrong way, it might just take out the shooter.

lol, yes... it depends on the holder of the gun.. and the gun manufacteror.. did they give the holder a manual? Did the holder read the manual?

A. G. Maisey · 19th August 2009, 01:34 AM

Michel, I'm going to tell you a little story.

Before I went to Jawa I had no idea at all that anything like tangguh existed. I thought I was doing pretty good if I could classify a keris according to origin in a geographic area. When I learnt and could reliably differentiate between Solo keris and Jogja keris I was regarded as a guru by local collectors.

During my first few trips to Indonesia I became aware that there was some sort of system of classifying keris that was totally beyond my understanding. I'd see old men --- always old men --- glance at the top of a keris that was still in the wrangka and pronounce it to be Tuban, or Majapahit, or whatever. Maybe they would withdraw it from the scabbard, study it for a couple of minutes and then give it as Pajajaran, or Pajang.

This was all intensely interesting, and as time went by I learnt a little more about this system, but I had no idea at all of how to use it.

Eventually I met Pak Parman and it was not until he accepted me as a student that I learnt anything worth knowing about tangguh and its application.

Pak Parman was 100% kejawen. Maybe he was 110% kejawen. If he said that a keris was Majapahit, to him, that meant that it had been made in Majapahit during the Majapahit era.

If he said that a keris was Kinom Mataram it was a keris that had been made start to finish by Kinom during the era of Sultan Agung.

This what I was taught, and it was field of knowledge that totally defied logic and reason, but as long as my teacher told me it was so, and as long as my teacher was still with us, and I was still his pupil I believed what he taught me completely.

To do otherwise would have been not only disrespectful but also incredibly stupid.

How many people from a western culture have been accepted as students by a Javanese palace empu?

To learn from Pak Parman I needed to accept and believe every word he gave me.

Without question.

The key word here is "believe".

The entire keris ethic in Central Jawa is a belief system. This includes the system of tangguh.

When you involve yourself in tangguh you need to forget reality as you understand it and adopt a Javanese world view. Time and the cosmos as it is understood by any person in a western culture does not translate into a Javanese thought pattern. You need to learn to understand everything in a different way.

Well, I struggled with tangguh and the many other things I needed to come to terms with in order to even begin to understand tangguh for years. Pak Parman though I was blind, deaf, dumb and stupid. By his standards I could not grasp even the most simple concept.

I had the very best teacher. The most knowledgeable man. Almost limitless access to excellent examples, and when I was asked to give the tangguh of something as simple as a Surakarta blade, or a Tuban blade, my mind went blank.

I think he probably gave up on me half a dozen times, but at the next visit he'd start again. He had an extremely violent temper and would lose patience with me very quickly, but the temper storm would pass as quickly as it arose and then he'd settle back into trying to get the knowledge that he had in his head into my head.

Pak Parman left us when I was in Australia. The next time I went back to Solo, a few months after his passing I went to visit his grave. The morning after I visited Pak Parman's grave I woke with a head full of ideas that I had not had when I went to sleep. It was as if every question I had ever had about keris was no longer a question but was already knowledge that I had always had. I could look at a keris and I could apply the indicators in an ordered fashion and give a supportable opinion on tangguh. I was not struggling to do this, I was doing it easily and naturally. Quite simply, I knew more when I awoke than I had when I went to sleep.

Michel, I am not a flake, and I do not have any sort of pretensions to any sort of paranormal powers. I look at everything from a base of logic and reason. However, I cannot explain what happened after my visit to Pak Parman's grave with any logic nor any reason.

The point of my story is this:-

if I had first hand tuition from perhaps the most knowledgeable man of his time in the application of the tangguh system, if the conditions under which I was taught were the very best conditions possible, if I had excellent access to excellent examples, and if after many years of this excellent tuition I still was unable to correctly and consistently apply the tangguh indicators and arrive at a supportable opinion, what hope is there for anybody to learn anything from photos and words on a computer screen?

Even if some small degree of knowledge could be gained, of what use is that knowledge without the ability to place the knowledge into a Javanese world view?

If you want to learn tangguh you must first learn to see the world through Javanese eyes.

Don't begin with tangguh and keris, but begin with trying to understand the way in which a traditional Javanese person understands the world. To do this you need to immerse yourself in Javanese culture and society. You cannot do it from computers and books.

19th August 2009, 12:12 AM	#4
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	Oke Alan, I undertand what you say. Like i posted before, it is a help to get an impression of a age or erra in witch the balde is made. Yes it feeds the need of the modern collector.. is there anny other need? I only can think of one other.. for museum display/indexing. But they can use carbon analisys combined with methodes that maybe could fall into tangguh classication. You speak of using Tangguh to get a good approximate indication, how can i see this.. year/month? only year? decade? will it say anny thing about the region its made. Since like i posted before my understanding of the Tangguh system specialy with comparrison with normal giving a impression is verry limited. Because of this i hope that the people on this forum would appriciate a Tangguh thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...9266#post89266). And hopping that you and maybe some others with knowledge of this system, would try to expain how it works and witch the indicators are.... Yes Alan i know what you now think, or what you wil respond. You told me already several times. That it is verry difficult to just expain and even more to do it on a forum or by mail, using photo's.. but please just give it a try. We the other forum members and keris entousiasts would realy appriciate the info given and try to lear us about it. I think that everybody understand that i wil not make us experts, or be able to use it propperly.. We have here in Holland a old saying.. translated...... A bullet not fired, is a target always missed. Last edited by kulbuntet; 19th August 2009 at 12:23 AM.

18th August 2009, 03:47 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	BTW Marco, i don't think that anyone has remark what a beautiful job you did staining these keris you have shown us.

18th August 2009, 02:53 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Michel, what you say about using tangguh to help form an impression, or as I would state it, a broad opinion of the classification of a blade is pretty much the way I would suggest that it could be used to satisfy the modern collector. However, this is not the way it was intended to be used, it is more the way that it is practical to use it now. Used correctly it can applied to give a good approximate indication of the age of a blade back to Mataram Sultan Agung. The closer we come to the present day, the more accurate it can be as an age indicator. However, when we start to consider the older tangguh classifications it is perhaps best to simply acknowledge that these keris are old keris, and not couple the tangguh with any concept of actual time. In Jawa you will find some people who will swear that tangguh Majapahit means that that keris was made during the Majapahit era. You will find others --- others who are extremely knowledgeable ahli keris --- who will say "tangguh nggak sungguh". To really understand the keris from a Javanese perspective it is absolutely essential to understand how the tangguh system works, and how to apply it. Regretably, the only way to gain this knowledge is to find somebody in Jawa who is prepared to teach you, and who has access to plenty of examples. Then give half a lifetime to the study. For anybody outside Javanese society the best that can be hoped for is to gain a small understanding of the theory applied to reaching a classification.This theory really precludes the application of the system to lower quality pieces, but as I have already said, very few, if any , people use this system now as it was intended to be used. However, there is one thing that is true:- anybody who gives a tangguh classification to a blade must be able to support his opinion with reasoned argument by reference to the indicators he has used. Far too often a person will say that a blade is tangguh such and such, and when pressed for his reason for saying this the best he can do is to simply say something like "because its looks like such and such". This is just not good enough. However, this failure to provide reasoned argument is precisely what allows half educated "experts" to give tangguh to village quality blades. If you stick with the indicators it is virtually impossible to classify a low quality piece within the tangguh structure.

19th August 2009, 01:34 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Michel, I'm going to tell you a little story. Before I went to Jawa I had no idea at all that anything like tangguh existed. I thought I was doing pretty good if I could classify a keris according to origin in a geographic area. When I learnt and could reliably differentiate between Solo keris and Jogja keris I was regarded as a guru by local collectors. During my first few trips to Indonesia I became aware that there was some sort of system of classifying keris that was totally beyond my understanding. I'd see old men --- always old men --- glance at the top of a keris that was still in the wrangka and pronounce it to be Tuban, or Majapahit, or whatever. Maybe they would withdraw it from the scabbard, study it for a couple of minutes and then give it as Pajajaran, or Pajang. This was all intensely interesting, and as time went by I learnt a little more about this system, but I had no idea at all of how to use it. Eventually I met Pak Parman and it was not until he accepted me as a student that I learnt anything worth knowing about tangguh and its application. Pak Parman was 100% kejawen. Maybe he was 110% kejawen. If he said that a keris was Majapahit, to him, that meant that it had been made in Majapahit during the Majapahit era. If he said that a keris was Kinom Mataram it was a keris that had been made start to finish by Kinom during the era of Sultan Agung. This what I was taught, and it was field of knowledge that totally defied logic and reason, but as long as my teacher told me it was so, and as long as my teacher was still with us, and I was still his pupil I believed what he taught me completely. To do otherwise would have been not only disrespectful but also incredibly stupid. How many people from a western culture have been accepted as students by a Javanese palace empu? To learn from Pak Parman I needed to accept and believe every word he gave me. Without question. The key word here is "believe". The entire keris ethic in Central Jawa is a belief system. This includes the system of tangguh. When you involve yourself in tangguh you need to forget reality as you understand it and adopt a Javanese world view. Time and the cosmos as it is understood by any person in a western culture does not translate into a Javanese thought pattern. You need to learn to understand everything in a different way. Well, I struggled with tangguh and the many other things I needed to come to terms with in order to even begin to understand tangguh for years. Pak Parman though I was blind, deaf, dumb and stupid. By his standards I could not grasp even the most simple concept. I had the very best teacher. The most knowledgeable man. Almost limitless access to excellent examples, and when I was asked to give the tangguh of something as simple as a Surakarta blade, or a Tuban blade, my mind went blank. I think he probably gave up on me half a dozen times, but at the next visit he'd start again. He had an extremely violent temper and would lose patience with me very quickly, but the temper storm would pass as quickly as it arose and then he'd settle back into trying to get the knowledge that he had in his head into my head. Pak Parman left us when I was in Australia. The next time I went back to Solo, a few months after his passing I went to visit his grave. The morning after I visited Pak Parman's grave I woke with a head full of ideas that I had not had when I went to sleep. It was as if every question I had ever had about keris was no longer a question but was already knowledge that I had always had. I could look at a keris and I could apply the indicators in an ordered fashion and give a supportable opinion on tangguh. I was not struggling to do this, I was doing it easily and naturally. Quite simply, I knew more when I awoke than I had when I went to sleep. Michel, I am not a flake, and I do not have any sort of pretensions to any sort of paranormal powers. I look at everything from a base of logic and reason. However, I cannot explain what happened after my visit to Pak Parman's grave with any logic nor any reason. The point of my story is this:- if I had first hand tuition from perhaps the most knowledgeable man of his time in the application of the tangguh system, if the conditions under which I was taught were the very best conditions possible, if I had excellent access to excellent examples, and if after many years of this excellent tuition I still was unable to correctly and consistently apply the tangguh indicators and arrive at a supportable opinion, what hope is there for anybody to learn anything from photos and words on a computer screen? Even if some small degree of knowledge could be gained, of what use is that knowledge without the ability to place the knowledge into a Javanese world view? If you want to learn tangguh you must first learn to see the world through Javanese eyes. Don't begin with tangguh and keris, but begin with trying to understand the way in which a traditional Javanese person understands the world. To do this you need to immerse yourself in Javanese culture and society. You cannot do it from computers and books.