Arsenic or realgar for Keris etching?

kulbuntet · 16th August 2009, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, in the photos this blade looks too dark.

But it may not be.

We do not know what the true colour of the material is:- we can all only work within the limits of the material.

It is not possible to make a Tuban blade look like a Surakarta blade.

Maybe what we see here is the correct colour for this blade.

Look at the examples I have posted:- there is a lot of variation in colour, and this is only a small sample, in reality, blade colours can vary a lot more than this.

Because of the limits of the material we need to be able to classify a blade according to tangguh so that we can recognise when the blade colour is correct.

Oke Alan, good comment.. cleary build..how can i be of asistence to give you more info to give you a clear impression of the blade (tanguh). Must i post dry pics?

addon,

this blade is when in oil (not like in pic) almost same colour.

Marcokeris · 16th August 2009, 04:28 PM

I always have used western (italian) lemon juice together warangan and i put the blade in the same way mr. Kulbuntet have showed in the nice pics.
If i have a blade with a little rust i'm not happy and "before or after" i finish to use warangan.
SOMETIMES i like my work (of course is my personal taste).....(sorry i dont have the pics before i used warangan)....

Marcokeris · 16th August 2009, 04:44 PM

...

Marcokeris · 16th August 2009, 04:50 PM

...sometimes i dont like!

kulbuntet · 16th August 2009, 10:21 PM

Like Alan just say,

need to look in to Tangguh of the blade. A new erra blade will never give smame results as a tuban/mojio/matharam/jengala/pajajeran. Just diffrent material/techniques. When washing, should not use the nickel/luwu/meteor material lines as indicator when blade is done.. the iron is the indicator. Iff not black, not realy. Iff is, done.

Marco, you may just call me Michel.. No problem taken is do, or dont. Im 32 and not of royal or other high status so dont need to stay formal on this ;-)

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 16th August 2009, 11:59 PM

Provided that the clean and stain job is done by somebody who understands the process, the end colour of the blade is always 100% dependent upon the material in the blade.

Always.

Bali blades are usually of high contrast material and nickel is mostly present, so they finish looking black and white.

Surakarta blades are similar.

But when you are handling a Pajajaran blade, you are dealing nearly always with pamor that has been produced from high phosphorus iron, so you don't get black and white, you get dark grey and light grey or dirty white.

With a village made blade the material can vary enormously so we need to closely monitor the changes in appearance when we first start to work on it.

We should be able to guess fairly closely what the blade will finish like as soon as we start to work on it, even if we have no idea of classification of the blade.

As for tangguh.

This is a system of classification that in this day and age appears to be almost completely misunderstood. It developed in response to a need, and now that need has passed the guidelines that originally applied are no longer followed. Every salesman, and every collector wants to place a tangguh on his blade, almost as if that is a seal of authenticity. It should not work like this. Tangguh should only be applied to blades of adequate quality that can be identified with a specific source. When we are considering a lower quality blade, or a village made blade, we should not even attempt to place a tangguh on it --- but that will not stop dealers and collectors from continuing to want to do so.

To classify a blade according to tangguh there are a number of indicators that need to be carefully observed and considered. There can be more than twenty, but there should not be less than twelve. Some of these indicators depend upon the perceived weight of the blade, its point of balance, and its texture when felt. It is only occasionally that a blade tangguh can be given from photographs. The occasions where you could chance giving a tangguh from photos would be restricted to some blades of extremely high quality that follow a kraton pattern exactly, or blades with certain distinctive features, such a Segaluh blade

Michel, regarding the presentation of my blades:- all were prepared for photograph in the same way. They are always kept "in oil", because I store my blades in plastic sleeves and the blade surface is always wet with oil. Prior to photographing them they are patted dry with a soft lint free cloth, then brushed over with a soft brush. The differences you can see in the blade surfaces are due to actual differences in the material and degree of erosion in the blades.

kulbuntet · 18th August 2009, 01:24 AM

Yes Alan,

I do understand it clearly. My remark on photography, was more about the difrence in your and my photo's.. specialy the background colour. your is blue.. sort of filter material.. to absorb light difrent than my wooden balcony tile...used to make some quick pics, to show on the forum.

And about tangguh. Yes it's normal for a collector to want to index their pieces, and give a label how old the blade is... as we do on every thing in normal life too. With the keris it's sometimes for comercial value sometimes just to want to know... depends on the person.

These indicators used for Tangguh, might ( do not know for sure, since my experience and knowledge of Tangguh is limited) also posible to use with lower keris than of high m'pu grade work, maybe not all but some wil be posible to do. But it should be used as a impression, and not as as fact or garanteed label. if done properly, it might be posible to get a good or near good impression. Yes of caorse there wil be faults made, but beter a bit of impression than none at all. Like you say, its not posible to get a surakarta blade looking as a jengala, or other way around. And by excluding other posibility's.... you might come up with an resonable impression in period...not in year/date. Wanting to do this must need manny years of knowledge/study/experience, the number of people that im confident they might can do and dare to do, are verry limited. Maybe 2 her in holland, and some in other countrys.

16th August 2009, 04:28 PM	#2
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	I always have used western (italian) lemon juice together warangan and i put the blade in the same way mr. Kulbuntet have showed in the nice pics. If i have a blade with a little rust i'm not happy and "before or after" i finish to use warangan. SOMETIMES i like my work (of course is my personal taste).....(sorry i dont have the pics before i used warangan).... Attached Images

16th August 2009, 04:44 PM	#3
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	... Attached Images

16th August 2009, 04:50 PM	#4
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	...sometimes i dont like! Attached Images

16th August 2009, 10:21 PM	#5
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	Like Alan just say, need to look in to Tangguh of the blade. A new erra blade will never give smame results as a tuban/mojio/matharam/jengala/pajajeran. Just diffrent material/techniques. When washing, should not use the nickel/luwu/meteor material lines as indicator when blade is done.. the iron is the indicator. Iff not black, not realy. Iff is, done. Marco, you may just call me Michel.. No problem taken is do, or dont. Im 32 and not of royal or other high status so dont need to stay formal on this ;-) Regards

16th August 2009, 11:59 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Provided that the clean and stain job is done by somebody who understands the process, the end colour of the blade is always 100% dependent upon the material in the blade. Always. Bali blades are usually of high contrast material and nickel is mostly present, so they finish looking black and white. Surakarta blades are similar. But when you are handling a Pajajaran blade, you are dealing nearly always with pamor that has been produced from high phosphorus iron, so you don't get black and white, you get dark grey and light grey or dirty white. With a village made blade the material can vary enormously so we need to closely monitor the changes in appearance when we first start to work on it. We should be able to guess fairly closely what the blade will finish like as soon as we start to work on it, even if we have no idea of classification of the blade. As for tangguh. This is a system of classification that in this day and age appears to be almost completely misunderstood. It developed in response to a need, and now that need has passed the guidelines that originally applied are no longer followed. Every salesman, and every collector wants to place a tangguh on his blade, almost as if that is a seal of authenticity. It should not work like this. Tangguh should only be applied to blades of adequate quality that can be identified with a specific source. When we are considering a lower quality blade, or a village made blade, we should not even attempt to place a tangguh on it --- but that will not stop dealers and collectors from continuing to want to do so. To classify a blade according to tangguh there are a number of indicators that need to be carefully observed and considered. There can be more than twenty, but there should not be less than twelve. Some of these indicators depend upon the perceived weight of the blade, its point of balance, and its texture when felt. It is only occasionally that a blade tangguh can be given from photographs. The occasions where you could chance giving a tangguh from photos would be restricted to some blades of extremely high quality that follow a kraton pattern exactly, or blades with certain distinctive features, such a Segaluh blade Michel, regarding the presentation of my blades:- all were prepared for photograph in the same way. They are always kept "in oil", because I store my blades in plastic sleeves and the blade surface is always wet with oil. Prior to photographing them they are patted dry with a soft lint free cloth, then brushed over with a soft brush. The differences you can see in the blade surfaces are due to actual differences in the material and degree of erosion in the blades.

18th August 2009, 01:24 AM	#7
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	Yes Alan, I do understand it clearly. My remark on photography, was more about the difrence in your and my photo's.. specialy the background colour. your is blue.. sort of filter material.. to absorb light difrent than my wooden balcony tile...used to make some quick pics, to show on the forum. And about tangguh. Yes it's normal for a collector to want to index their pieces, and give a label how old the blade is... as we do on every thing in normal life too. With the keris it's sometimes for comercial value sometimes just to want to know... depends on the person. These indicators used for Tangguh, might ( do not know for sure, since my experience and knowledge of Tangguh is limited) also posible to use with lower keris than of high m'pu grade work, maybe not all but some wil be posible to do. But it should be used as a impression, and not as as fact or garanteed label. if done properly, it might be posible to get a good or near good impression. Yes of caorse there wil be faults made, but beter a bit of impression than none at all. Like you say, its not posible to get a surakarta blade looking as a jengala, or other way around. And by excluding other posibility's.... you might come up with an resonable impression in period...not in year/date. Wanting to do this must need manny years of knowledge/study/experience, the number of people that im confident they might can do and dare to do, are verry limited. Maybe 2 her in holland, and some in other countrys.