On the 'kaskara'

Jim McDougall · 9th May 2005, 08:47 PM

Lee,
Very good point on the Omani kattara (has anyone also thought of how much that terms sounds like kaskara?) which evolved from the medieval Arab broadswords as well of course. It is interesting that these Omani swords also began sporting trade blades, again typically German, sometime in the 18th century. It is interesting to note that these typically have a rounded blade tip, much like the Saharan takouba. One would wonder what one would have to do with the other given the considerable distance geographically, but of course again...trade...there are many distinct associations between the very active Omani traders and the Sahara. The presence of Omani swords in Zanzibar is well known with its Sultanate there, and trade entered cross African routes via Ethiopian centers into Darfur, then westward to Mali. The familiar Manding sabres which have the Omani style guardless hilt and the scabbards with flared tip as kaskaras seem compelling evidence of the connections.

Radu, this brings us to your very well made point on the Saharan point of contact where the takouba, and of course where the origins of the kaskara may be found. The common use of the imported blades is apparant, yet the hilt design is typically quite different, with the takouba's block type crossguard.
Here is an interesting thought, the point of entry for trade blades and commerce from Oman would have been via Zanzibar and likely Red Sea ports then westward to Saharan/Tuareg regions. The entry for European blades was primarily via Tunis and Moroccan ports, then southward to Kano, then to the east. It would be interesting to find the confluence of these routes and the movement of the blades, and more on how these routes might have changed in different centuries. Which was more prevalent, maritime or caravan trade, and to which regions? or were both equally present.

You make a very good point as well on the romanticized notions relating the blades to the crusaders that I had forgotten about, of course the locals who were hawking the swords would have used such hyperbole to excite travellers from other countries, and narrators would have capitalized on such material. BTW, my reference to 'Victorian' actually referred more to the style of such writing which was as pronounced in non-European places such as America, but they were as equally susceptible to such stories.

Tom, its good to have your input on this as you always have keen observations on the construction and elements of sword components and its is important to consider these factors. Actually, I believe you are quite right on the langets of the kaskara, and I admit I have never seen one taken down or without grip cover. In examining the examples I have, I cannot really tell as the grips are so tightly wrapped, and I could not see the telltale rise under the wrap that would suggest the langet wrapped over as in Persian, Arab examples as you have noted. Your point and observation are very well taken, and appreciated, thank you for clarifying that. Excellent!

Any thoughts on the discoid wheel shaped pommel placed horizontally on the Darfur examples? It seems the pommels on European medieval swords are typically placed vertically, where might the flat placement of the pommel have originated?

This is what is great about discussions here, the range of knowledge and perspective of those participating with varying aspects of the subject weapon being viewed accordingly. The flat disc on regular Sudanese kaskaras also.

Thanks very much guys!!!

All the best,
Jim

ham · 10th May 2005, 12:04 AM

Gentlemen,

In the foregoing discussion of Sudanese swords, one wonders whether the geographical proximity to Egypt and all that implies is being considered sufficiently, at least by others than Jim McD. Several of the Sudanese coats in the Met Museum, New York are altered Mamluk examples from the 16th century and earlier. At least one kaskara there is mounted with a fine Arab blade dated in the late medieval period in gold, if I recall correctly.
Clearly, early medieval Arab swords were quite similar in form to those used by Europeans-- the blades were long, straight (if not always single-edged) and the hilts bore a large cross and distinct pommel-- as a brief look through Yucel's ISLAMIC SWORDS AND SWORDSMITHS will attest. Equally importantly, as noted above, the double langets on the cross descend from those found on Mamluk, Ottoman and Persian swords. Finally, if one considers the enduring relationships, to say nothing of the religious connexions, the Sudanese shared with various Islamic dynasties of the Near East and Africa, the origin of the kaskara becomes clear.
The (much) later influx of European trade blades to the Sudan simply served to supply a form which was retained in culturally conservative areas, yet was no longer available from more mainstream producers in the Near East; such at least appears also to be the case with the kaskara, as well as the Omani kattara.
As for disk pommels, it seems likely they are the result of necessity, as is that of the tulwar-- the sword is used in a drawcut, hence the hand required backing.

Sincerely,

Ham

Jim McDougall · 10th May 2005, 02:19 AM

Hello Ham!
Its really great to hear from you again. You've been absent far too long. As always, excellent input, and as you point out, the presence of Islamic broadswords in Egypt certainly maintained the sword form that was ideal for the proto-kaskara in the Sudan. In Yucel, the Mamluk blades certainly do represent the blade forms prior to and through the crusades. It would not be surprising to find Mamluk swords with medieval blades, as those shown in Yucel, yet it seems uncertain as far as Sudanese kaskara are concerned. I believe at least one of Sultan Ali Dinar's blades is claimed to have a medieval blade, but the sword illustrated in Tony North's "Introduction to Islamic Arms" (V&A 1985)according to him is now in a private collection and inaccesible (p.30b, heirloom blade). The other photos of kaskaras have 19th c. and 17th c. blades. As you have noted there are coats of mail which have some early lineage in Mamluk holdings.

What you say is brilliantly worded, "...the much later influx of European trade blades to the Sudan simply served to supply a form which was retained in culturally conservative areas". Exactly !!!! Therefore the kaskara itself did not evolve from the swords of the crusaders, but remained the Arab broadsword form culturally in place from even prior to those campaigns. In later times, with the increased advent of trade blade commerce, certain European influences were imbued in quillon shapes and especially in blade features and markings, that evolved into the familiar kaskara types of the 19th-20th c.

It would seem that in earlier times, not all warriors had swords as these were expensive, the same as it was for European forces. While there may have been massive numbers of rank and file, those arms with swords were likely to have been proportionally smaller numbers. Certainly by the later period when commercial imports of trade blades increased, there would have been equally increased availability to arm growing numbers of warriors, and the more generic form that became the kaskara became established as an indiginous form with Sudanese tribes.

It seems interesting that, as you mention, the sword blade producing centers from medieval times such as Cairo, Yemen and others all but ceased producing blades and gave over to the stream of foreign blades, especially from Germany. By the 18th century, as noted, even the Omani swords were mounted with German blades.

Thank you again for posting on this Ham, hope you stay with us!!!

All the best,
Jim

Andrew · 10th May 2005, 04:30 AM

I think this thread obviates the need to re-open the elephant thread.

Andrew · 10th May 2005, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

As for disk pommels, it seems likely they are the result of necessity, as is that of the tulwar-- the sword is used in a drawcut, hence the hand required backing.

Sincerely,

Ham

Hi ham. I think this is very interesting. Is it really so much a function of backing the hand as it is ergonomically facilitating the draw?

Conogre · 10th May 2005, 05:21 AM

I can't help but notice that the Crusades seem to be the earliest mention of western swords in the region of the Soudan and N. Africa, particularly in relation to the kaskara, while it should be considered that long, straight blades of western influence were probably introduced into the area as far back as the Roman empire, notably the Celtic longswords being carried as "treasure" and trade items by legionaries, just as a short sword very reminiscent of the Roman gladius was used by Ethiopian troops from approximatley the same period, I believe roughly 50 BC or so right up through the early 20th century.
As to the flattened pommel disc vs the upright western style, it seems logical to me that this was likely an evolution from the local smiths who seemed to show a propensity for peened over tangs.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the association goes much further back than is commonly noted, with certain periods romanticizing the resemblance for a period until it faded from comment until the next "wave'>
Mike

ham · 10th May 2005, 06:23 PM

I think this is very interesting. Is it really so much a function of backing the hand as it is ergonomically facilitating the draw?

I think we're saying the same thing-- backing the hand ergonomically facilitates the draw. The pommel, whatever its form, be it shamshir or kaskara, acts as an anchor at the heel of the hand when the blade is pulled through the cut.
Is anyone on the Sword Forum researching the drawcut in Islamic cultures? Precious little written on swordsmanship in Arabic, Ottoman or Persian that I could find.

Ham

Andrew · 10th May 2005, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

I think this is very interesting. Is it really so much a function of backing the hand as it is ergonomically facilitating the draw?

I think we're saying the same thing-- backing the hand ergonomically facilitates the draw. The pommel, whatever its form, be it shamshir or kaskara, acts as an anchor at the heel of the hand when the blade is pulled through the cut.
Is anyone on the Sword Forum researching the drawcut in Islamic cultures? Precious little written on swordsmanship in Arabic, Ottoman or Persian that I could find.

Ham

I think I understand, Ham. Such pommels would clearly aid in securing one's grip when pulling through the cut.

However, other weapons that utilize the drawcut (e.g. katana) do not have such an anchor in the pommel, so I wonder if other purposes might be divined for the feature. The impression I get from the large pommels found on swords like tulwar, kaskara and, to an extent, certain vikingswords is that the the tightness of the grip coupled with the size/shape of the pommel limits wrist movement, thus "forcing" the elbow and shoulder movements into the drawcut.

I didn't always think this way, but for a time I was convinced that fingering the quillion on tulwar was a logical way to reconcile the tight grip and disc pommel. Others here more experienced than I have nearly succeeded in disabusing me of this. At least enough for me to consider other reasons for the handle design.

It's possible that Alina Boyden may be researching Arabic sword arts, but I'm uncertain to what extent. She posts on myArmoury.com and SFI from time to time.

Andrew

10th May 2005, 12:04 AM	#2
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Regarding Sudanese arms and armour Gentlemen, In the foregoing discussion of Sudanese swords, one wonders whether the geographical proximity to Egypt and all that implies is being considered sufficiently, at least by others than Jim McD. Several of the Sudanese coats in the Met Museum, New York are altered Mamluk examples from the 16th century and earlier. At least one kaskara there is mounted with a fine Arab blade dated in the late medieval period in gold, if I recall correctly. Clearly, early medieval Arab swords were quite similar in form to those used by Europeans-- the blades were long, straight (if not always single-edged) and the hilts bore a large cross and distinct pommel-- as a brief look through Yucel's ISLAMIC SWORDS AND SWORDSMITHS will attest. Equally importantly, as noted above, the double langets on the cross descend from those found on Mamluk, Ottoman and Persian swords. Finally, if one considers the enduring relationships, to say nothing of the religious connexions, the Sudanese shared with various Islamic dynasties of the Near East and Africa, the origin of the kaskara becomes clear. The (much) later influx of European trade blades to the Sudan simply served to supply a form which was retained in culturally conservative areas, yet was no longer available from more mainstream producers in the Near East; such at least appears also to be the case with the kaskara, as well as the Omani kattara. As for disk pommels, it seems likely they are the result of necessity, as is that of the tulwar-- the sword is used in a drawcut, hence the hand required backing. Sincerely, Ham Last edited by ham; 10th May 2005 at 12:15 AM.

9th May 2005, 08:47 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Lee, Very good point on the Omani kattara (has anyone also thought of how much that terms sounds like kaskara?) which evolved from the medieval Arab broadswords as well of course. It is interesting that these Omani swords also began sporting trade blades, again typically German, sometime in the 18th century. It is interesting to note that these typically have a rounded blade tip, much like the Saharan takouba. One would wonder what one would have to do with the other given the considerable distance geographically, but of course again...trade...there are many distinct associations between the very active Omani traders and the Sahara. The presence of Omani swords in Zanzibar is well known with its Sultanate there, and trade entered cross African routes via Ethiopian centers into Darfur, then westward to Mali. The familiar Manding sabres which have the Omani style guardless hilt and the scabbards with flared tip as kaskaras seem compelling evidence of the connections. Radu, this brings us to your very well made point on the Saharan point of contact where the takouba, and of course where the origins of the kaskara may be found. The common use of the imported blades is apparant, yet the hilt design is typically quite different, with the takouba's block type crossguard. Here is an interesting thought, the point of entry for trade blades and commerce from Oman would have been via Zanzibar and likely Red Sea ports then westward to Saharan/Tuareg regions. The entry for European blades was primarily via Tunis and Moroccan ports, then southward to Kano, then to the east. It would be interesting to find the confluence of these routes and the movement of the blades, and more on how these routes might have changed in different centuries. Which was more prevalent, maritime or caravan trade, and to which regions? or were both equally present. You make a very good point as well on the romanticized notions relating the blades to the crusaders that I had forgotten about, of course the locals who were hawking the swords would have used such hyperbole to excite travellers from other countries, and narrators would have capitalized on such material. BTW, my reference to 'Victorian' actually referred more to the style of such writing which was as pronounced in non-European places such as America, but they were as equally susceptible to such stories. Tom, its good to have your input on this as you always have keen observations on the construction and elements of sword components and its is important to consider these factors. Actually, I believe you are quite right on the langets of the kaskara, and I admit I have never seen one taken down or without grip cover. In examining the examples I have, I cannot really tell as the grips are so tightly wrapped, and I could not see the telltale rise under the wrap that would suggest the langet wrapped over as in Persian, Arab examples as you have noted. Your point and observation are very well taken, and appreciated, thank you for clarifying that. Excellent! Any thoughts on the discoid wheel shaped pommel placed horizontally on the Darfur examples? It seems the pommels on European medieval swords are typically placed vertically, where might the flat placement of the pommel have originated? This is what is great about discussions here, the range of knowledge and perspective of those participating with varying aspects of the subject weapon being viewed accordingly. The flat disc on regular Sudanese kaskaras also. Thanks very much guys!!! All the best, Jim

10th May 2005, 02:19 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Hello Ham! Its really great to hear from you again. You've been absent far too long. As always, excellent input, and as you point out, the presence of Islamic broadswords in Egypt certainly maintained the sword form that was ideal for the proto-kaskara in the Sudan. In Yucel, the Mamluk blades certainly do represent the blade forms prior to and through the crusades. It would not be surprising to find Mamluk swords with medieval blades, as those shown in Yucel, yet it seems uncertain as far as Sudanese kaskara are concerned. I believe at least one of Sultan Ali Dinar's blades is claimed to have a medieval blade, but the sword illustrated in Tony North's "Introduction to Islamic Arms" (V&A 1985)according to him is now in a private collection and inaccesible (p.30b, heirloom blade). The other photos of kaskaras have 19th c. and 17th c. blades. As you have noted there are coats of mail which have some early lineage in Mamluk holdings. What you say is brilliantly worded, "...the much later influx of European trade blades to the Sudan simply served to supply a form which was retained in culturally conservative areas". Exactly !!!! Therefore the kaskara itself did not evolve from the swords of the crusaders, but remained the Arab broadsword form culturally in place from even prior to those campaigns. In later times, with the increased advent of trade blade commerce, certain European influences were imbued in quillon shapes and especially in blade features and markings, that evolved into the familiar kaskara types of the 19th-20th c. It would seem that in earlier times, not all warriors had swords as these were expensive, the same as it was for European forces. While there may have been massive numbers of rank and file, those arms with swords were likely to have been proportionally smaller numbers. Certainly by the later period when commercial imports of trade blades increased, there would have been equally increased availability to arm growing numbers of warriors, and the more generic form that became the kaskara became established as an indiginous form with Sudanese tribes. It seems interesting that, as you mention, the sword blade producing centers from medieval times such as Cairo, Yemen and others all but ceased producing blades and gave over to the stream of foreign blades, especially from Germany. By the 18th century, as noted, even the Omani swords were mounted with German blades. Thank you again for posting on this Ham, hope you stay with us!!! All the best, Jim

10th May 2005, 04:30 AM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I think this thread obviates the need to re-open the elephant thread.

10th May 2005, 05:21 AM	#6
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I can't help but notice that the Crusades seem to be the earliest mention of western swords in the region of the Soudan and N. Africa, particularly in relation to the kaskara, while it should be considered that long, straight blades of western influence were probably introduced into the area as far back as the Roman empire, notably the Celtic longswords being carried as "treasure" and trade items by legionaries, just as a short sword very reminiscent of the Roman gladius was used by Ethiopian troops from approximatley the same period, I believe roughly 50 BC or so right up through the early 20th century. As to the flattened pommel disc vs the upright western style, it seems logical to me that this was likely an evolution from the local smiths who seemed to show a propensity for peened over tangs. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the association goes much further back than is commonly noted, with certain periods romanticizing the resemblance for a period until it faded from comment until the next "wave'> Mike

10th May 2005, 06:23 PM	#7
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	I think this is very interesting. Is it really so much a function of backing the hand as it is ergonomically facilitating the draw? I think we're saying the same thing-- backing the hand ergonomically facilitates the draw. The pommel, whatever its form, be it shamshir or kaskara, acts as an anchor at the heel of the hand when the blade is pulled through the cut. Is anyone on the Sword Forum researching the drawcut in Islamic cultures? Precious little written on swordsmanship in Arabic, Ottoman or Persian that I could find. Ham