Arsenic or realgar for Keris etching?

A. G. Maisey · 15th August 2009, 03:23 AM

I also am no expert on the staining of keris, but I have been staining keris since I was about 17 or 18, and I am now 68. That's a pretty long time. I taught myself to stain keris by reading descriptions in books written during colonial times by British people who had visited, or who were resident in Malaya. Before I ever went to Indonesia I knew three different methods, and of these I had found that the most effective did not involve arsenic at all, but used sulphur, salt and rice water.

The first lessons I had on staining keris in Jogja came from an old gentleman who was introduced to me as "Romo Murdo". From him I learnt a very quick and easy way to bring a blade back to an acceptable condition with very little effort. This method is the basis for the brushing method that I recommend to people who want to know how to stain a keris. However, my recommendations incorporate things that I did not learn in Jogja.

After this Jogja lesson I then learnt other ways of using warangan and of staining keris; some of these ways were variations of the Romo Murdo method, others were considerably different, such as the soak method.I learnt these varying ways over a very long period and from a number of people in Solo and Malang.Often my lessons came in disjointed sections, and the people I learnt from were totally unaware that they were teaching me.

Pak Parman taught me the very best method. It is produces excellent results, is virtually fail proof, but has high potential for danger.

In all methods, one thing is absolutely certain:- the end result depends very much on the surface preparation before staining commences.

Pak Ganja has explained his approach.

Pak Parman taught me only to scrub to whiteness with cleaning ash (abu gosok) and coconut husk; use of water as the lubricant is preferred, and after the blade is white, lime juice without warangan is used to sensitise the blade for the initial warangan application. I have used this cleaning method many times, and it is effective.

In Australia I do not use ash, nor coconut husk to get the blade white. I use sink cleaner such as Ajax, and steel wool or scotchbrite pads. I feel that these materials probably give a better result than the ash and coconut husk.

Whatever is used is probably not at all important.What is important is that the blade surface must be absolutely spotless, especially in the depressions and grain openings found in old blades, if you do not get rid of dirt and residual rust completely you will finish up with green or yellow discolouration under the apparently black surface.

If you want to see how good a staining job is you must take the blade into direct sunlight and look at it at an angle so that you can see into the stain. I examine in this way every blade that I pay to have done, and I usually reject at least 50% of those blades. If you only look at a blade in indirect light you cannot see the imperfections in the staining. If you look at it inside a building, you will never see anything.

A really good staining job takes a long time to do, and can require adjustment of contrast even when it is seemingly finished. It is an art, and in my experience very few people can practice this art effectively.

However, almost anybody can get a decent result just by following instructions and using common sense.

David · 15th August 2009, 03:50 AM

Thank you so much Alan. Though i cannot really tell until i make my next attempt, i believe the little tips you have given here will improve my staining skills a good 50%.

A. G. Maisey · 15th August 2009, 04:40 AM

You do a pretty fair job as it is , David.

You know, you can sometimes return a dirty old blade to almost good just by washing it with dishwash detergent and a hard toothbrush. Just wash it at the sink with hot water, blow dry with a hairdryer after patting dry with a lint free cloth, and then drench with WD40.

This is a simple thing to do, but it really can bring a lousy looking blade back to life. Sure, it won't be as good as a complete clean and stain, but it can improve a blade enormously.

ganjawulung · 15th August 2009, 07:57 AM

.. And for 'traditional staining' in Jawa, not only the preparation of "mutih" the blade is absolutely important, but also the formula of mixing the ready-to-use warangan. (The art is here. I have certain friends in Solo who has private empirical solution to make a better warangan, such as -- mixing the warangan with 'spoiled rice', and so on). According to my experience -- and also my keris-stainer friend in Solo -- warangan liquid made of (we call it) "warangan apotik" (literally means 'drugstore arsenic' or chemical arsenic), usually is quick reacting but more corrosive. After couple of months stained with "warangan apotik" then usually the edge of the keris usually "ngrikit" (corroded). Maybe because of the purity of the arsenic.

That is why in Yogya and Solo, people still prefer to choose "natural arsenic" or we usually call it "warangan". Traditionally used by our ancestor in the past. Usually, chinese warangan (imported from China). Even we don't use local (Indonesian) warangan, because of the worse quality then the chinese...

The impurity of the arsenic in warangan, maybe the clue... Not too corrosive as "warangan apotik"...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 15th August 2009, 09:18 AM

Laboratory quality arsenic trioxide is most definitely not corrosive.

I have used this material on more keris than I can count over a 50 year period. Many of these keris that I have stained with this material I still have in my own collection.It has absolutely no corrosive effect on a blade.

Moreover, I do not find it quicker acting. Both arsenic trioxide and traditional warangan react differently on different blades, sometimes they will work quickly, sometimes slowly.

Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, but I've used both traditional warangan and lab quality arsenic trioxide. Both can produce a good result. Neither is corrosive. Time taken to do the job, averaged over a number of blades is about the same. If I need to do the job when I'm in Solo, I use warangan. If I do the job at home I use arsenic. I probably prefer arsenic, but that's only because I've used it more often, plus the fact that the warangan that I can currently buy in Solo is just not all that good.

The blades shown in my post # 13 were both done with arsenic; the waved blade had previously been done with warangan but was unsatisfactory.

This shown blade below was done with traditional warangan.

All these blades have been stained for a number of years , the one below for about 25 years.

Both materials give a good result if you understand the process.

Neither material is more corrosive than the other.To claim that lab quality arsenic trioxide is corrosive is simply rubbish.

As for the soak method of staining, frankly I dislike it. It is unreliable and inconsistent, but it is cheap and not labour intensive, and the only commercially viable way to stain a blade. Of course the people who stain blades for a living will speak highly of this method, but I've seen the results produced by the very best in this field, and I still reject much of their work.

As always each of us is entitled to his own opinion, but this time I'm not stating my opinion, I'm stating demonstrable fact.

ganjawulung · 15th August 2009, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Neither material is more corrosive than the other.To claim that lab quality arsenic trioxide is corrosive is simply rubbish..

I saw, that both your examples are 'newer' blades. How about your experience of staining of your old blades? My opinion is based on my own experience on my old blades...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenic_trioxide
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/MHMI/mmg168.pdf
http://health.yahoo.com/leukemia-med...-d04720a1.html

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 15th August 2009, 11:19 AM

Yeah, that's arsenic trioxide. Which we already know. What is the relevance of the links?

What we're talking about here is the supposed greater corrosiveness of arsenic trioxide over warangan.

In this respect I have not noticed any difference between warangan and arsenic trioxide.

None at all.

Arsenic is very mildly acidic. Lime juice itself is far more acidic than arsenic.

So is vinegar.

So is pineapple juice.

So is coconut water.

So is dilute hydrochloric acid.

So is dilute sulphuric acid.

So is citric acid.

And all these quite mild acids are regularly used to clean keris blades.

Yes, the three blades I've posted pics of are all new blades. I made two of them, Yantono made one of them.They're new.

I've used arsenic trioxide on old blades many times, but I cannot recall exactly which old blades that I still have that I've done with arsenic --- or more correctly, there are a couple I can easily ID as having been done with arsenic, but I do not publish photos of my personal keris. I have probably still got some blades that I've done with arsenic that are ID'd as blades that I will sell, and if I can find one or two I'll put up pics of those too.

However, the long and the short of it is that I have never noted any corrosive effect flowing from use of arsenic trioxide.

In my experience this corrosiveness of arsenic trioxide simply does not exist.

Not only does it not exist in my experience, but the claim is impossible to support with logic, given the relative acidity of arsenic trioxide and lime juice.

If a blade edge has become eroded following the staining process it will be because of some factor other than the use of arsenic trioxide.

ganjawulung · 15th August 2009, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, .... .

Would you please clarify this sentence, Mr Maisey? Thank you in advance...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 15th August 2009, 01:57 PM

Pak Ganja, this is the sentence I wrote:-

Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, but I've used both traditional warangan and lab quality arsenic trioxide.

Read the entire sentence and I'm certain it is perfectly clear.

Read the paragraph and there can be doubt at all of my meaning:-

Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, but I've used both traditional warangan and lab quality arsenic trioxide. Both can produce a good result. Neither is corrosive. Time taken to do the job, averaged over a number of blades is about the same. If I need to do the job when I'm in Solo, I use warangan. If I do the job at home I use arsenic. I probably prefer arsenic, but that's only because I've used it more often, plus the fact that the warangan that I can currently buy in Solo is just not all that good.

However, just so there will be no doubt at all about my meaning I will attempt to clarify, as you have requested.

I am drawing a comparison between my actual experience over a very long period of time, involving a very large number of blades, and using both substances, namely traditional warangan, and lab. quality arsenic trioxide, and your recounting of the experience of others that has been related to you.

As you would appreciate, this is the difference between extensive first hand experience, my own, and your received reports and impressions from other people.

You are perfectly at liberty to ignore or discount my comments if you so desire, because in fact, from your perspective, my recounted experience need carry no more weight than the experiences of others that have similarly been presented to you.

Your acceptance or rejection of my comments is of absolutely no importance to me:- I have told what I know to be true and I see no need to prove anything to you, nor to any other person. However, your acceptance of the results of my experience could be to your benefit, although this acceptance would not make one iota of difference to my state of existence.

15th August 2009, 09:18 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Laboratory quality arsenic trioxide is most definitely not corrosive. I have used this material on more keris than I can count over a 50 year period. Many of these keris that I have stained with this material I still have in my own collection.It has absolutely no corrosive effect on a blade. Moreover, I do not find it quicker acting. Both arsenic trioxide and traditional warangan react differently on different blades, sometimes they will work quickly, sometimes slowly. Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, but I've used both traditional warangan and lab quality arsenic trioxide. Both can produce a good result. Neither is corrosive. Time taken to do the job, averaged over a number of blades is about the same. If I need to do the job when I'm in Solo, I use warangan. If I do the job at home I use arsenic. I probably prefer arsenic, but that's only because I've used it more often, plus the fact that the warangan that I can currently buy in Solo is just not all that good. The blades shown in my post # 13 were both done with arsenic; the waved blade had previously been done with warangan but was unsatisfactory. This shown blade below was done with traditional warangan. All these blades have been stained for a number of years , the one below for about 25 years. Both materials give a good result if you understand the process. Neither material is more corrosive than the other.To claim that lab quality arsenic trioxide is corrosive is simply rubbish. As for the soak method of staining, frankly I dislike it. It is unreliable and inconsistent, but it is cheap and not labour intensive, and the only commercially viable way to stain a blade. Of course the people who stain blades for a living will speak highly of this method, but I've seen the results produced by the very best in this field, and I still reject much of their work. As always each of us is entitled to his own opinion, but this time I'm not stating my opinion, I'm stating demonstrable fact. Attached Images

15th August 2009, 03:23 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	I also am no expert on the staining of keris, but I have been staining keris since I was about 17 or 18, and I am now 68. That's a pretty long time. I taught myself to stain keris by reading descriptions in books written during colonial times by British people who had visited, or who were resident in Malaya. Before I ever went to Indonesia I knew three different methods, and of these I had found that the most effective did not involve arsenic at all, but used sulphur, salt and rice water. The first lessons I had on staining keris in Jogja came from an old gentleman who was introduced to me as "Romo Murdo". From him I learnt a very quick and easy way to bring a blade back to an acceptable condition with very little effort. This method is the basis for the brushing method that I recommend to people who want to know how to stain a keris. However, my recommendations incorporate things that I did not learn in Jogja. After this Jogja lesson I then learnt other ways of using warangan and of staining keris; some of these ways were variations of the Romo Murdo method, others were considerably different, such as the soak method.I learnt these varying ways over a very long period and from a number of people in Solo and Malang.Often my lessons came in disjointed sections, and the people I learnt from were totally unaware that they were teaching me. Pak Parman taught me the very best method. It is produces excellent results, is virtually fail proof, but has high potential for danger. In all methods, one thing is absolutely certain:- the end result depends very much on the surface preparation before staining commences. Pak Ganja has explained his approach. Pak Parman taught me only to scrub to whiteness with cleaning ash (abu gosok) and coconut husk; use of water as the lubricant is preferred, and after the blade is white, lime juice without warangan is used to sensitise the blade for the initial warangan application. I have used this cleaning method many times, and it is effective. In Australia I do not use ash, nor coconut husk to get the blade white. I use sink cleaner such as Ajax, and steel wool or scotchbrite pads. I feel that these materials probably give a better result than the ash and coconut husk. Whatever is used is probably not at all important.What is important is that the blade surface must be absolutely spotless, especially in the depressions and grain openings found in old blades, if you do not get rid of dirt and residual rust completely you will finish up with green or yellow discolouration under the apparently black surface. If you want to see how good a staining job is you must take the blade into direct sunlight and look at it at an angle so that you can see into the stain. I examine in this way every blade that I pay to have done, and I usually reject at least 50% of those blades. If you only look at a blade in indirect light you cannot see the imperfections in the staining. If you look at it inside a building, you will never see anything. A really good staining job takes a long time to do, and can require adjustment of contrast even when it is seemingly finished. It is an art, and in my experience very few people can practice this art effectively. However, almost anybody can get a decent result just by following instructions and using common sense.

15th August 2009, 03:50 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	Thank you so much Alan. Though i cannot really tell until i make my next attempt, i believe the little tips you have given here will improve my staining skills a good 50%.

15th August 2009, 04:40 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	You do a pretty fair job as it is , David. You know, you can sometimes return a dirty old blade to almost good just by washing it with dishwash detergent and a hard toothbrush. Just wash it at the sink with hot water, blow dry with a hairdryer after patting dry with a lint free cloth, and then drench with WD40. This is a simple thing to do, but it really can bring a lousy looking blade back to life. Sure, it won't be as good as a complete clean and stain, but it can improve a blade enormously.

15th August 2009, 07:57 AM	#4
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	.. And for 'traditional staining' in Jawa, not only the preparation of "mutih" the blade is absolutely important, but also the formula of mixing the ready-to-use warangan. (The art is here. I have certain friends in Solo who has private empirical solution to make a better warangan, such as -- mixing the warangan with 'spoiled rice', and so on). According to my experience -- and also my keris-stainer friend in Solo -- warangan liquid made of (we call it) "warangan apotik" (literally means 'drugstore arsenic' or chemical arsenic), usually is quick reacting but more corrosive. After couple of months stained with "warangan apotik" then usually the edge of the keris usually "ngrikit" (corroded). Maybe because of the purity of the arsenic. That is why in Yogya and Solo, people still prefer to choose "natural arsenic" or we usually call it "warangan". Traditionally used by our ancestor in the past. Usually, chinese warangan (imported from China). Even we don't use local (Indonesian) warangan, because of the worse quality then the chinese... The impurity of the arsenic in warangan, maybe the clue... Not too corrosive as "warangan apotik"... GANJAWULUNG

15th August 2009, 11:19 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Yeah, that's arsenic trioxide. Which we already know. What is the relevance of the links? What we're talking about here is the supposed greater corrosiveness of arsenic trioxide over warangan. In this respect I have not noticed any difference between warangan and arsenic trioxide. None at all. Arsenic is very mildly acidic. Lime juice itself is far more acidic than arsenic. So is vinegar. So is pineapple juice. So is coconut water. So is dilute hydrochloric acid. So is dilute sulphuric acid. So is citric acid. And all these quite mild acids are regularly used to clean keris blades. Yes, the three blades I've posted pics of are all new blades. I made two of them, Yantono made one of them.They're new. I've used arsenic trioxide on old blades many times, but I cannot recall exactly which old blades that I still have that I've done with arsenic --- or more correctly, there are a couple I can easily ID as having been done with arsenic, but I do not publish photos of my personal keris. I have probably still got some blades that I've done with arsenic that are ID'd as blades that I will sell, and if I can find one or two I'll put up pics of those too. However, the long and the short of it is that I have never noted any corrosive effect flowing from use of arsenic trioxide. In my experience this corrosiveness of arsenic trioxide simply does not exist. Not only does it not exist in my experience, but the claim is impossible to support with logic, given the relative acidity of arsenic trioxide and lime juice. If a blade edge has become eroded following the staining process it will be because of some factor other than the use of arsenic trioxide.

15th August 2009, 01:57 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Pak Ganja, this is the sentence I wrote:- Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, but I've used both traditional warangan and lab quality arsenic trioxide. Read the entire sentence and I'm certain it is perfectly clear. Read the paragraph and there can be doubt at all of my meaning:- Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, but I've used both traditional warangan and lab quality arsenic trioxide. Both can produce a good result. Neither is corrosive. Time taken to do the job, averaged over a number of blades is about the same. If I need to do the job when I'm in Solo, I use warangan. If I do the job at home I use arsenic. I probably prefer arsenic, but that's only because I've used it more often, plus the fact that the warangan that I can currently buy in Solo is just not all that good. However, just so there will be no doubt at all about my meaning I will attempt to clarify, as you have requested. I am drawing a comparison between my actual experience over a very long period of time, involving a very large number of blades, and using both substances, namely traditional warangan, and lab. quality arsenic trioxide, and your recounting of the experience of others that has been related to you. As you would appreciate, this is the difference between extensive first hand experience, my own, and your received reports and impressions from other people. You are perfectly at liberty to ignore or discount my comments if you so desire, because in fact, from your perspective, my recounted experience need carry no more weight than the experiences of others that have similarly been presented to you. Your acceptance or rejection of my comments is of absolutely no importance to me:- I have told what I know to be true and I see no need to prove anything to you, nor to any other person. However, your acceptance of the results of my experience could be to your benefit, although this acceptance would not make one iota of difference to my state of existence.