Large Jambiya for comment

Atlantia · 13th August 2009, 10:38 PM

Interesting contrast between these similar pieces.

I notice Stuarts does not have the central rib, and I've been trying to see if the blade has a thickened tip?
Also Graemes, whilst having the central rib, has incised decoration cut into it, similar to that on Stu's.

Are these two similar but distinct 'styles' indicative of specific respective areas, or timeframes, or are their differences purely 'coincidental' manufacturing choices of their makers?

kahnjar1 · 14th August 2009, 07:48 AM

Hi Graeme and Gene,
The lower one is very similar to one of mine, which according to Elgood is from the Asir/Hijaz region, and dating to the 20th century, Bani Malik and Bani Shahr Tribes.
The upper one appears to be from the Hijaz region, and my guess would be 20th century.
As far as the blades of these particular long bladed Jambiyas are concerned, I have always believed that the flat blades are of earlier vintage than the ribbed ones, but that is only my opinion based on the viewed age of the total piece. I have used as "rule of thumb" that flat blade is 19th or very early 20th century and ribbed a little later. I have nothing concrete to base this on other than gut instinct. Perhaps others here can elaborate.
Nice pieces Graeme.

Regards Stuart

Michael Blalock · 14th August 2009, 11:59 AM

I have assumed the ribbed blade vs. flat blade is a regional issue, with the flat blades coming from the North and the ribbed blades coming from closer to the Yemen but that is just speculation too.

kahnjar1 · 14th August 2009, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Blalock

I have assumed the ribbed blade vs. flat blade is a regional issue, with the flat blades coming from the North and the ribbed blades coming from closer to the Yemen but that is just speculation too.

Quite possible I suppose, although Elgoods book shows both blade types as Asir/Hijaz regions, the overall area covering quite a large chunk of the Western Arabian coastline.
Thought the pic might be of interest. Its from Elgood book and shows these Jambiya worn by some of the "gentlemen"
Regards Stuart

Oriental-Arms · 14th August 2009, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Graeme and Gene,
The lower one is very similar to one of mine, which according to Elgood is from the Asir/Hijaz region, and dating to the 20th century, Bani Malik and Bani Shahr Tribes.
The upper one appears to be from the Hijaz region, and my guess would be 20th century.
As far as the blades of these particular long bladed Jambiyas are concerned, I have always believed that the flat blades are of earlier vintage than the ribbed ones, but that is only my opinion based on the viewed age of the total piece. I have used as "rule of thumb" that flat blade is 19th or very early 20th century and ribbed a little later. I have nothing concrete to base this on other than gut instinct. Perhaps others here can elaborate.
Nice pieces Graeme.

Regards Stuart

I am afraid I have a slightly different opinion. From my experience, the ribbed blades are of better quality and earlier to the flat blade, but I also can not substantiate it.

Lew · 14th August 2009, 03:27 PM

I agree with Artzi on this forged ribbed blades need a high skill level to create the flat ones seem to appear after WW1 Stuart's piece seems to fit in between 1920-40. I have a similar one but a bit more worn. I included a pic of a large jamibiya with a 24" blade whick I am pretty sure is late 19th century?

trajan · 14th August 2009, 03:34 PM

I agree with Oriental Arms.

I had 4 of these. The largest I have sold and is not pictured. It had a flat blade and no fullers. Exterior looked the same but blade was far inferior to the top 2 pictured.

The two larger pictured both have fullers/ribs and fine quality blades.

The bottom piece I believe would have been a boy's as its very small for these. It is flat with poorer decoration and weak fullers .

I've always enjoyed these big types too!

matt

Lew · 14th August 2009, 03:45 PM

Some of these jambiya have a small zipper compartment on the inside of the belt mine has a YKK zipper.
In January 1946 the company registered the now famous YKK trademark. A major technological change came in 1950, when the company purchased a chain machine from the U.S. that allowed the automation of the zipper making process. Previously, YKK zippers were made by hand, and hence had an superior quality compared to zippers of water.

So it seems that a lot of these Asir jambiya we see today are from 1940s-60 with some older ones popping up now and then that are pre 1918.

Lew

kahnjar1 · 15th August 2009, 05:00 AM

Thanks Artzi for coming in on this discussion. I have no doubt that you have done more study than the rest of us as this is your business. We can only be guided by publications, such as they are, about these weapons. I can see that flat blades would be easier (and cheaper) to forge than ribbed ones. From that point of view, my train of thought was that the EARLIER ones would be flat as the forger would perhaps not been exposed to the technology required to make the ribbed version. I guess we will never know for certain but I am finding this discussion extremely interesting. As I have said before on this Forum, we are all still, and always will be, learning.
Just to add a little more, here are some pics of the rest of my long Jambiyas. The one with the "Sudanese type" hilt has been rehilted at some stage but the whole item shows good age, so it is not a recent happening.
Regards Stuart

Lew · 15th August 2009, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I can see that flat blades would be easier (and cheaper) to forge than ribbed ones. From that point of view, my train of thought was that the EARLIER ones would be flat as the forger would perhaps not been exposed to the technology required to make the ribbed version.
Regards Stuart

Stuart

Sorry but I think you have this backwards? The forged rib has was developed to help pop open chainmail links (armor piercing) which makes the technique quite old. The flat blade was easier to make and required less skill to produce and many newer smiths post 1900 just did not the skill to produce the forged rib. Maybe the technique was just lost as the older smiths died off and they and for some reason did not have an apprentice to pass it on to. After oil was discovered I'm pretty sure that the old art of blade forging started to die out because the sons of these old smiths could make more money in the different areas of the oil business and related areas.

Lew

14th August 2009, 03:27 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I agree with Artzi on this forged ribbed blades need a high skill level to create the flat ones seem to appear after WW1 Stuart's piece seems to fit in between 1920-40. I have a similar one but a bit more worn. I included a pic of a large jamibiya with a 24" blade whick I am pretty sure is late 19th century? Attached Images

14th August 2009, 03:34 PM	#7
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	jambiyas I agree with Oriental Arms. I had 4 of these. The largest I have sold and is not pictured. It had a flat blade and no fullers. Exterior looked the same but blade was far inferior to the top 2 pictured. The two larger pictured both have fullers/ribs and fine quality blades. The bottom piece I believe would have been a boy's as its very small for these. It is flat with poorer decoration and weak fullers . I've always enjoyed these big types too! matt Attached Images

14th August 2009, 03:45 PM	#8
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Some of these jambiya have a small zipper compartment on the inside of the belt mine has a YKK zipper. In January 1946 the company registered the now famous YKK trademark. A major technological change came in 1950, when the company purchased a chain machine from the U.S. that allowed the automation of the zipper making process. Previously, YKK zippers were made by hand, and hence had an superior quality compared to zippers of water. So it seems that a lot of these Asir jambiya we see today are from 1940s-60 with some older ones popping up now and then that are pre 1918. Lew Attached Images

15th August 2009, 05:00 AM	#9
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Thanks Artzi for coming in on this discussion. I have no doubt that you have done more study than the rest of us as this is your business. We can only be guided by publications, such as they are, about these weapons. I can see that flat blades would be easier (and cheaper) to forge than ribbed ones. From that point of view, my train of thought was that the EARLIER ones would be flat as the forger would perhaps not been exposed to the technology required to make the ribbed version. I guess we will never know for certain but I am finding this discussion extremely interesting. As I have said before on this Forum, we are all still, and always will be, learning. Just to add a little more, here are some pics of the rest of my long Jambiyas. The one with the "Sudanese type" hilt has been rehilted at some stage but the whole item shows good age, so it is not a recent happening. Regards Stuart Attached Images

13th August 2009, 10:38 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Interesting contrast between these similar pieces. I notice Stuarts does not have the central rib, and I've been trying to see if the blade has a thickened tip? Also Graemes, whilst having the central rib, has incised decoration cut into it, similar to that on Stu's. Are these two similar but distinct 'styles' indicative of specific respective areas, or timeframes, or are their differences purely 'coincidental' manufacturing choices of their makers?

14th August 2009, 07:48 AM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Hi Graeme and Gene, The lower one is very similar to one of mine, which according to Elgood is from the Asir/Hijaz region, and dating to the 20th century, Bani Malik and Bani Shahr Tribes. The upper one appears to be from the Hijaz region, and my guess would be 20th century. As far as the blades of these particular long bladed Jambiyas are concerned, I have always believed that the flat blades are of earlier vintage than the ribbed ones, but that is only my opinion based on the viewed age of the total piece. I have used as "rule of thumb" that flat blade is 19th or very early 20th century and ribbed a little later. I have nothing concrete to base this on other than gut instinct. Perhaps others here can elaborate. Nice pieces Graeme. Regards Stuart

14th August 2009, 11:59 AM	#3
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	I have assumed the ribbed blade vs. flat blade is a regional issue, with the flat blades coming from the North and the ribbed blades coming from closer to the Yemen but that is just speculation too.