Tulwar?

Emanuel · 12th August 2009, 05:02 PM

KuKulZa, a tegha blade is often as wide as the guard, almost reaching the finials of the quillons.
There is no rule for this, it's more to do with the general proportions of the thing, blade width to hilt proportions. Rule of thumb I use - tulwar blades are narrower than the disk pommel, while tegha blades are wider than the disk.

Compare below, tegha from OA.

sandeepsingh · 13th August 2009, 05:23 PM

Nice Tegha

Thanks Emanuel and KuKulzA28 for the recommodation !

Sandeep

Michael Blalock · 24th August 2009, 12:53 PM

I took some photos of this Tulwar. My camera is only working in wide angle mode so the focus is poor in close-ups.
The hilt not really that nice, cast brass with a cast or cut in pattern. Is this a european blade. I have seen the stamped makers mark elsewhere. It looks like a bee or fly to me. Maybe on this site as some time.
I think I can see a pattern in the steel but I am not sure, though the pictures don't show as much as the naked eye. If it's european there this would not be wootz? I tried some nitric acid, which did not seem to bring any more out. Do I have to polish the steel to see the pattern better? Should I use the 3M wet/dry paper? Sand with oil, or dry sand?

I assume the hilt is set in pitch and if I heat it up the blade should pull out?

Norman McCormick · 24th August 2009, 03:54 PM

Hi,
I like the blade, I don't think its European, well, Western European anyway.
Regards,
Norman.

Jens Nordlunde · 24th August 2009, 05:01 PM

Neither do I, I agree with Norman. I think the blade is Indian, and I have seen marks on Indian blades – not quite like the one shown, but alike.

Atlantia · 24th August 2009, 06:23 PM

Looks nice, I agree the blade looks Indian. Might be wootz, definately replace the missing handle elements! Nice project for the winter, make them yourself!
'3M' Silicon carbide paper, and spit! 1000-1500 on a soft wood block. If you even really need to repolish? Bath of concentrated lemon juice should show patterns if there are any, then repolish is you want. Handle resins should soften with heat, go easy so you don't catch it onfire or add colour to the silver plate.

Jim McDougall · 24th August 2009, 08:14 PM

As Jens has noted, there are tulwars which were actually produced without the disc pommel, and and I once handled one of these captured in a British cavalry action on plains near the Khyber c.1930. It is my perception that many Afghans were of much larger stature than many of the ethnic groups in India, and had distinctly larger hands. We have had many discussions regarding the typically smaller hilt configurations on many Indian swords to accomodate this , and I'm certain that disparate contentions remain.
Regardless, with discussions noting certain impairments in use of the Indo-Persian hilt tulwar if used in other than typically applied technique, it seemed possible to me that open hilted tulwars might have been produced in the north for Afghan use.
This is of course my opinion based on the example seen, and the Tirri examples, which interestingly are also shown as having 'lost' thier pommel discs. Without close examination it is hard to say that these had lost them.

With this tulwar shown, it appears to be of mid to perhaps latter 19th century with a hilt referred to by Pant as Udaipuri (Rajasthan) and of course, the large disc pommel is missing. The peaks mid grip, extended and almost rectangular langet without usual flueret and discoid quillon terminals are characteristic, as is the recurved knuckle bow.

The blade indeed appears Indian, and the interesting stamped mark shows the continued use of Indian bladesmiths of early European markings. This one is unusual though known to have often appeared with the familiar 'sickle' marks (aka eyelashes etc) associated with Genoan blades in the 16th-18th century, and widely copied by many European centers.

The marking itself closely resembles one shown in Wallace Collection (p.361, A710) north Italian mid 16th century and as noted often found with sickle marks, which are almost invariably found on Afghan paluoars, and certainly well known in India's northern blade making centers from 18th century onward. These markings are of the family of north Italian markings known as 'twig marks' usually with peaks top and bottom and on each side.

Best regards,
Jim

12th August 2009, 05:02 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	KuKulZa, a tegha blade is often as wide as the guard, almost reaching the finials of the quillons. There is no rule for this, it's more to do with the general proportions of the thing, blade width to hilt proportions. Rule of thumb I use - tulwar blades are narrower than the disk pommel, while tegha blades are wider than the disk. Compare below, tegha from OA. Attached Images

24th August 2009, 12:53 PM	#3
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	I took some photos of this Tulwar. My camera is only working in wide angle mode so the focus is poor in close-ups. The hilt not really that nice, cast brass with a cast or cut in pattern. Is this a european blade. I have seen the stamped makers mark elsewhere. It looks like a bee or fly to me. Maybe on this site as some time. I think I can see a pattern in the steel but I am not sure, though the pictures don't show as much as the naked eye. If it's european there this would not be wootz? I tried some nitric acid, which did not seem to bring any more out. Do I have to polish the steel to see the pattern better? Should I use the 3M wet/dry paper? Sand with oil, or dry sand? I assume the hilt is set in pitch and if I heat it up the blade should pull out? Attached Images

13th August 2009, 05:23 PM	#2
sandeepsingh Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: India Posts: 85	Nice Tegha Thanks Emanuel and KuKulzA28 for the recommodation ! Sandeep

24th August 2009, 03:54 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,632	Hi, I like the blade, I don't think its European, well, Western European anyway. Regards, Norman.

24th August 2009, 05:01 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Neither do I, I agree with Norman. I think the blade is Indian, and I have seen marks on Indian blades – not quite like the one shown, but alike.

24th August 2009, 06:23 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Looks nice, I agree the blade looks Indian. Might be wootz, definately replace the missing handle elements! Nice project for the winter, make them yourself! '3M' Silicon carbide paper, and spit! 1000-1500 on a soft wood block. If you even really need to repolish? Bath of concentrated lemon juice should show patterns if there are any, then repolish is you want. Handle resins should soften with heat, go easy so you don't catch it onfire or add colour to the silver plate.

24th August 2009, 08:14 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,453	As Jens has noted, there are tulwars which were actually produced without the disc pommel, and and I once handled one of these captured in a British cavalry action on plains near the Khyber c.1930. It is my perception that many Afghans were of much larger stature than many of the ethnic groups in India, and had distinctly larger hands. We have had many discussions regarding the typically smaller hilt configurations on many Indian swords to accomodate this , and I'm certain that disparate contentions remain. Regardless, with discussions noting certain impairments in use of the Indo-Persian hilt tulwar if used in other than typically applied technique, it seemed possible to me that open hilted tulwars might have been produced in the north for Afghan use. This is of course my opinion based on the example seen, and the Tirri examples, which interestingly are also shown as having 'lost' thier pommel discs. Without close examination it is hard to say that these had lost them. With this tulwar shown, it appears to be of mid to perhaps latter 19th century with a hilt referred to by Pant as Udaipuri (Rajasthan) and of course, the large disc pommel is missing. The peaks mid grip, extended and almost rectangular langet without usual flueret and discoid quillon terminals are characteristic, as is the recurved knuckle bow. The blade indeed appears Indian, and the interesting stamped mark shows the continued use of Indian bladesmiths of early European markings. This one is unusual though known to have often appeared with the familiar 'sickle' marks (aka eyelashes etc) associated with Genoan blades in the 16th-18th century, and widely copied by many European centers. The marking itself closely resembles one shown in Wallace Collection (p.361, A710) north Italian mid 16th century and as noted often found with sickle marks, which are almost invariably found on Afghan paluoars, and certainly well known in India's northern blade making centers from 18th century onward. These markings are of the family of north Italian markings known as 'twig marks' usually with peaks top and bottom and on each side. Best regards, Jim