Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 9th May 2005, 06:13 AM   #1
Lee
EAAF Staff
 
Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 932
Red face

Quote:
Lee Jones holds a 'revisionist' perspective
This was no great original thinking on my part, but a concept espoused by Briggs in his excellent monograph on takoubas and kaskaras with European-made blades. Briggs was unaware of any examples of either Saharan sword type with surviving medieval blades; I am unaware of any examples that have come to light in the subsequent decades since his publication. As I recall, Briggs postulated that these may have descended from medieval Arab blades, which were also largely straight and double edged. Consider also the Omani kattara.

Quote:
Show me anything earlier and be prepared to prove it.
I feel as though I am presently falling further behind in all aspects of my life; once I take care of some pending obligations, I will post some pictures of some 18th and possibly 17th century European blades so mounted. Unfortunately it will probably be at least a month before the traffic clears.
Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2005, 05:11 PM   #2
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,192
Default

Thank you so much Jeff! I know that you have put some time in on kaskara study as well, as we have discussed many times over these years !

Thank you Lee for coming in on this as I had hoped. Your outstanding article has been one of the only focused attention works on the kaskara since Briggs (1965) and Reed (1987) and actually I wanted to detach the 'revisionist' stigma. It would seem that serious academic perspective on these swords has long since left the romantic notions of Victorian narration associating these swords with the crusaders, despite the colorful perspective. As you have noted, the Islamic broadsword blades were well established already in these regions by the time of the crusades, so looking to European swords for influence for kaskara ancestry would seem redundant. The later influx of trade blades was the key to development, and the simple but distinct crossguard typically reflected more European influence, also possibly from earlier fully mounted swords that likely came in earlier trade.

I really look forward to seeing these earlier blades of 17th-18th century, as most of what we see these days of kaskaras are late 19th century of course, and many are of the early 20th century. I recall your work on examining blades to distinguish the native blades from European trade examples also which was excellent! The blades from native armourers actually became quite well made, so such determination became increasingly more difficult.

All best regards,
Jim

Last edited by Jim McDougall; 9th May 2005 at 05:21 PM.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2005, 05:56 PM   #3
tom hyle
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Posts: 1,254
Default

It is my impression that the kaskara usually has both upper and lower lagnets, and that the upper lagnet is typically uder the handle wrap, somewhat as seen in Arabia. Perhaps I have seen an atypical sampling. But as to the construction of the kaskara guard, is it hollow enough to take some of the handle material and serve as a ferule, like a Tukish one, or is it pierced only for the tang?
The shape of takouba blades is really interesting, with the wide long-ricassoish base of the blade, and the rest tapering to the narrow, round tip......
Proof can really get in the way someimes though. For example, I remember an Ethiopian sword with typical horn hilt, and with a straight, springy, double-edged blade with a fairly (but not sabrishly) wide groove running out the tip and into the hilt. Its surface was unmarked save by the wear of many polishings and sharpenings. It seemed to show layered steel. This could be a medieval European sword, and why not? As I've mentioned before I've heard and read that one could buy them in England and Germany for around $50 fairly routinely up into the early 1970s, even, and they were liable to be considered "old junk". But there is no proof, of course. Of course. How could there be? What would prove it? What could possibly prove it? Destructive dating tests on the steel?.......So in the setting of unprovable concepts, what use is the idea of proof?
As to the nonuse of metal and/or swords in Africa from early times, I believe that this is history that may be getting revised as we write.....
tom hyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2005, 07:23 PM   #4
Radu Transylvanicus
Member
 
Radu Transylvanicus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA
Posts: 271
Default

I think whomever discovers the exact source of inspiration for the takouba is holding the evolutionary key for the kaskara as well. I belong to a generalist European point of view where they are regarded as the closely related straight edged swords of the Islamic black Africa, to be found in the Saharan and Sub-Saharan region.
There is an undeniable European influence in the blades, including direct manufacture and origins of steel but when it comes to the origin I agree that the Arabians would have to share in influence.
I also would like to mention the "revisionist" theory that these sword are direct descendants of the European crusade swords is neither new, neither does it belong to a "romantic Eurocentrist" (thank you Tom, I still use this terminology as you can see). These allegations, preposterous or not, were made actually by the local population and were taken back to the Old World in excitement by naive travelers in the late " golden age of exploration". Even further to fuel this theory, many blades had European marks and lettering, many of them actually crudely stamped by African smiths on local blades in imitation or hope for profit and the methodology used to an untrained eye alongside the rough construction was easily targeted as "crusader influence".
These swords are a good example of the creational universality of arms and armour, a blend of three separate flavours: African, Arabian and European. In my belief, like probably most people, I embrace the ideea that in most types of weaponry there is very little of the "absolute local inventions" but they are rather "inovatory evolutionary creations" ... as in yathagan, khukri, kerises and so on.
Also keep in mind that takoubas and kaskaras were made on large scale, although executed a-la-carte, for the visitors, mainly of European origins ending up as souvenirs. That is exactly why they are largely found in so many collections including basic minimal private ones (no hurt feelings, anyone I hope...).
It would be nice to gather a certain amount of collectors and exchange data in between and trace where differences and similarities reside: length, weigth, European or local blade, fullered or not, characteristics of the handle, materials used, common techniques in fabrication, similar markings, provenance and so on. Gathering data would help in a further and more serious research since they are so readily available, wish I could start but I do not own one, however I know many of you do !
Another issue worth mentioning, speaking of the similarities, is the one between the swolen end leather sheaths on baldrics with hanging knots of the Manding swords and the ones for most kaskara due to interaction in the geographical proximity.

Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 9th May 2005 at 07:57 PM.
Radu Transylvanicus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2005, 08:47 PM   #5
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,192
Default

Lee,
Very good point on the Omani kattara (has anyone also thought of how much that terms sounds like kaskara?) which evolved from the medieval Arab broadswords as well of course. It is interesting that these Omani swords also began sporting trade blades, again typically German, sometime in the 18th century. It is interesting to note that these typically have a rounded blade tip, much like the Saharan takouba. One would wonder what one would have to do with the other given the considerable distance geographically, but of course again...trade...there are many distinct associations between the very active Omani traders and the Sahara. The presence of Omani swords in Zanzibar is well known with its Sultanate there, and trade entered cross African routes via Ethiopian centers into Darfur, then westward to Mali. The familiar Manding sabres which have the Omani style guardless hilt and the scabbards with flared tip as kaskaras seem compelling evidence of the connections.

Radu, this brings us to your very well made point on the Saharan point of contact where the takouba, and of course where the origins of the kaskara may be found. The common use of the imported blades is apparant, yet the hilt design is typically quite different, with the takouba's block type crossguard.
Here is an interesting thought, the point of entry for trade blades and commerce from Oman would have been via Zanzibar and likely Red Sea ports then westward to Saharan/Tuareg regions. The entry for European blades was primarily via Tunis and Moroccan ports, then southward to Kano, then to the east. It would be interesting to find the confluence of these routes and the movement of the blades, and more on how these routes might have changed in different centuries. Which was more prevalent, maritime or caravan trade, and to which regions? or were both equally present.

You make a very good point as well on the romanticized notions relating the blades to the crusaders that I had forgotten about, of course the locals who were hawking the swords would have used such hyperbole to excite travellers from other countries, and narrators would have capitalized on such material. BTW, my reference to 'Victorian' actually referred more to the style of such writing which was as pronounced in non-European places such as America, but they were as equally susceptible to such stories.

Tom, its good to have your input on this as you always have keen observations on the construction and elements of sword components and its is important to consider these factors. Actually, I believe you are quite right on the langets of the kaskara, and I admit I have never seen one taken down or without grip cover. In examining the examples I have, I cannot really tell as the grips are so tightly wrapped, and I could not see the telltale rise under the wrap that would suggest the langet wrapped over as in Persian, Arab examples as you have noted. Your point and observation are very well taken, and appreciated, thank you for clarifying that. Excellent!

Any thoughts on the discoid wheel shaped pommel placed horizontally on the Darfur examples? It seems the pommels on European medieval swords are typically placed vertically, where might the flat placement of the pommel have originated?

This is what is great about discussions here, the range of knowledge and perspective of those participating with varying aspects of the subject weapon being viewed accordingly. The flat disc on regular Sudanese kaskaras also.

Thanks very much guys!!!

All the best,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2005, 12:04 AM   #6
ham
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 190
Default Regarding Sudanese arms and armour

Gentlemen,

In the foregoing discussion of Sudanese swords, one wonders whether the geographical proximity to Egypt and all that implies is being considered sufficiently, at least by others than Jim McD. Several of the Sudanese coats in the Met Museum, New York are altered Mamluk examples from the 16th century and earlier. At least one kaskara there is mounted with a fine Arab blade dated in the late medieval period in gold, if I recall correctly.
Clearly, early medieval Arab swords were quite similar in form to those used by Europeans-- the blades were long, straight (if not always single-edged) and the hilts bore a large cross and distinct pommel-- as a brief look through Yucel's ISLAMIC SWORDS AND SWORDSMITHS will attest. Equally importantly, as noted above, the double langets on the cross descend from those found on Mamluk, Ottoman and Persian swords. Finally, if one considers the enduring relationships, to say nothing of the religious connexions, the Sudanese shared with various Islamic dynasties of the Near East and Africa, the origin of the kaskara becomes clear.
The (much) later influx of European trade blades to the Sudan simply served to supply a form which was retained in culturally conservative areas, yet was no longer available from more mainstream producers in the Near East; such at least appears also to be the case with the kaskara, as well as the Omani kattara.
As for disk pommels, it seems likely they are the result of necessity, as is that of the tulwar-- the sword is used in a drawcut, hence the hand required backing.

Sincerely,

Ham

Last edited by ham; 10th May 2005 at 12:15 AM.
ham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2005, 02:19 AM   #7
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,192
Default

Hello Ham!
Its really great to hear from you again. You've been absent far too long. As always, excellent input, and as you point out, the presence of Islamic broadswords in Egypt certainly maintained the sword form that was ideal for the proto-kaskara in the Sudan. In Yucel, the Mamluk blades certainly do represent the blade forms prior to and through the crusades. It would not be surprising to find Mamluk swords with medieval blades, as those shown in Yucel, yet it seems uncertain as far as Sudanese kaskara are concerned. I believe at least one of Sultan Ali Dinar's blades is claimed to have a medieval blade, but the sword illustrated in Tony North's "Introduction to Islamic Arms" (V&A 1985)according to him is now in a private collection and inaccesible (p.30b, heirloom blade). The other photos of kaskaras have 19th c. and 17th c. blades. As you have noted there are coats of mail which have some early lineage in Mamluk holdings.

What you say is brilliantly worded, "...the much later influx of European trade blades to the Sudan simply served to supply a form which was retained in culturally conservative areas". Exactly !!!! Therefore the kaskara itself did not evolve from the swords of the crusaders, but remained the Arab broadsword form culturally in place from even prior to those campaigns. In later times, with the increased advent of trade blade commerce, certain European influences were imbued in quillon shapes and especially in blade features and markings, that evolved into the familiar kaskara types of the 19th-20th c.

It would seem that in earlier times, not all warriors had swords as these were expensive, the same as it was for European forces. While there may have been massive numbers of rank and file, those arms with swords were likely to have been proportionally smaller numbers. Certainly by the later period when commercial imports of trade blades increased, there would have been equally increased availability to arm growing numbers of warriors, and the more generic form that became the kaskara became established as an indiginous form with Sudanese tribes.

It seems interesting that, as you mention, the sword blade producing centers from medieval times such as Cairo, Yemen and others all but ceased producing blades and gave over to the stream of foreign blades, especially from Germany. By the 18th century, as noted, even the Omani swords were mounted with German blades.

Thank you again for posting on this Ham, hope you stay with us!!!

All the best,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2005, 04:35 AM   #8
Andrew
Member
 
Andrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,725
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ham
As for disk pommels, it seems likely they are the result of necessity, as is that of the tulwar-- the sword is used in a drawcut, hence the hand required backing.

Sincerely,

Ham
Hi ham. I think this is very interesting. Is it really so much a function of backing the hand as it is ergonomically facilitating the draw?
Andrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.