A stupendous hand cannon

Philip · 8th August 2009, 03:49 AM

Fernando,
I think that your idea explaining the thickness of the breech also has validity. Added stability in a short barrel is a good thing. Very often there is more than one factor that explains why something is designed the way it is.
Thanks for offering me a visit to the Barcarena factory, I had no idea it was in your neighborhood. Years ago I had a couple boxes of 8 mm ammunition for the Modelo 1886 rifle marked to this powder-mill; the "bullets" were made of wood and there was very little powder in the shells. I think that they were made either for volleys fired as ceremonial salutes, or to give novice soldiers the experience of loading and firing the rifle before being allowed "live ammo" for target practice.

fernando · 8th August 2009, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

...Thanks for offering me a visit to the Barcarena factory, I had no idea it was in your neighborhood...

Well, it is not; i gave you a wrong idea. It is not far from Lisbon (Oeiras county), by the Barcarena stream, whose waters powered the mills (galgas).
... but the visit invitation remains

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

...Years ago I had a couple boxes of 8 mm ammunition for the Modelo 1886 rifle marked to this powder-mill; the "bullets" were made of wood and there was very little powder in the shells. I think that they were made either for volleys fired as ceremonial salutes...

Yes, for military funerals, as also for simulating fire exchange in trainning exercizes and so. I didn't use simulated ammo in my service, but i once had a 7,9 mm for the Mauser, with a brownish wood round point "bullet".

Fernando

Matchlock · 8th August 2009, 05:39 PM

Hi Fernando, my friend,

You really deserve being congratulated on this fine, rare and early piece which can doubtlessly be dated as early as ca. 1400!

I attach photos of two handgonnes from my collection which you certainly remember. The smaller of them, ca. 1380-1400, retains one of its originally two iron bands to fix it on the (missing) stock. Just like on your piece, the octagonal barrel shows a broad flat next to a narrower one alternatingly - a very early feature, together with the touch hole being situated quite a bit forward of the rear end. On my piece, the touch hole is 4 cm from the rear, which is about the same relation as my barrel is only 13.8 cm long.

The touch hole of the larger barrel, made in ca. 1460-80, is 6.3 cm from the rear end and has a bulged pan like area around it.

As the touch hole on your beautiful barrel is surrounded by a finely polished and well centered pan moulding which is not by far as heavily corroded as the surroundings, and which is too early for the time your barrel was made, I think that it is a working time amendment of ca. 1450-60 when such pan mouldings first arise.

Well done, my friend! I think your path to early hand cannon has led you far back to their origins already!

Best,

Michael - mad with sheer envy

P.S. May I add that your lovely cat Adriano adds an overwhelmingly natural charm to the old barrel!

8th August 2009, 03:49 AM	#1
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	multiple purpoises / Fabrica de polvora de Barcarena Fernando, I think that your idea explaining the thickness of the breech also has validity. Added stability in a short barrel is a good thing. Very often there is more than one factor that explains why something is designed the way it is. Thanks for offering me a visit to the Barcarena factory, I had no idea it was in your neighborhood. Years ago I had a couple boxes of 8 mm ammunition for the Modelo 1886 rifle marked to this powder-mill; the "bullets" were made of wood and there was very little powder in the shells. I think that they were made either for volleys fired as ceremonial salutes, or to give novice soldiers the experience of loading and firing the rifle before being allowed "live ammo" for target practice.

8th August 2009, 05:39 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A Very Important 'Handgonne', ca. 1400 Hi Fernando, my friend, You really deserve being congratulated on this fine, rare and early piece which can doubtlessly be dated as early as ca. 1400! I attach photos of two handgonnes from my collection which you certainly remember. The smaller of them, ca. 1380-1400, retains one of its originally two iron bands to fix it on the (missing) stock. Just like on your piece, the octagonal barrel shows a broad flat next to a narrower one alternatingly - a very early feature, together with the touch hole being situated quite a bit forward of the rear end. On my piece, the touch hole is 4 cm from the rear, which is about the same relation as my barrel is only 13.8 cm long. The touch hole of the larger barrel, made in ca. 1460-80, is 6.3 cm from the rear end and has a bulged pan like area around it. As the touch hole on your beautiful barrel is surrounded by a finely polished and well centered pan moulding which is not by far as heavily corroded as the surroundings, and which is too early for the time your barrel was made, I think that it is a working time amendment of ca. 1450-60 when such pan mouldings first arise. Well done, my friend! I think your path to early hand cannon has led you far back to their origins already! Best, Michael - mad with sheer envy P.S. May I add that your lovely cat Adriano adds an overwhelmingly natural charm to the old barrel! Attached Images