Victorian ... ?? sabre

Jeff D · 7th August 2009, 11:14 PM

Hi Mark,

Firman & Sons 153 Strand & 13 Conduit St. probably Dates to around 1836-1837.
Firman, Philip &Sons with the same address dates 1845-1850
Seagrove W. & E. 22&23 Common Hard, Portsea dates 1852-1854.
The Proof mark is from Mole.

Putting this together the manufacturer was the Birmingham Co. Mole sold buy the outfitter Firman and Sons around 1837-1850, with a replaced later scabbard from Seagrove.

Hope this Helps.
Jeff

Mark Cloke · 10th August 2009, 10:41 AM

Hello,

I would put your sword circa 1845-1860.

Firmin was at 153 Strand (amongst other addresses) from 1783 - 1894. "Firmin & Sons" would probably indicate a date between 1839-1879.

As has already been said your sword in an 1845 pattern blade. Wilkinson started the tradition of the brass "Proof" slug in about 1845 which was then copied by other manufacturers. I would also suggest that the sword was probably made by Mole's of Birmingham bassed on the proof slug design. The hinged flap on the guard was officially discontinued in 1852 but as swords were a private purchase for officers they had some room for personal choice and I have seen many post 1852 swords with the flap.

I would personally date you sword from circa 1845-1860

The name on the scabbard of E & W Seagrove is probably "Seagrove, Edwin & William" who traded from 22 & 23 Common Hard from 1852-1859 which would fit in with the approx age of your sword. If the scabbard is original to the blade then you can narrow the dates down. They were mainly a Naval Outfitters in Portsmouth so this may indicate a naval link or it could be that the sword/scabbard was purchased in a hurry before boarding a transport ship.

(Most of the dates for the makers above come from Swords for Sea Service by May & Annis. You can also find them on my website www.oldswords.com)

celtan · 10th August 2009, 02:25 PM

Hmmm, interesting. That would also make mine a 1852-76 Victorian sword, with a Birmingham-made Mole blade.

Best

M

Mark · 10th August 2009, 08:01 PM

Thanks, everyone. As always, the forumites are a fountain of information!

One further question: Any idea what the two side-by-side holes are in the guard (visible in the 5th photo in my first post, and the 3nd in my second post)? There is a similar pair at the point where the knuckle guard meets the pommel, barely visible in the 4th photo of my first post. They are hardly decorative, yet are so small I can't imagine their having anything tied through them. I noticed that celtan's very similar sword lacks them.

Mark Cloke · 10th August 2009, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

Thanks, everyone. As always, the forumites are a fountain of information!

One further question: Any idea what the two side-by-side holes are in the guard (visible in the 5th photo in my first post, and the 3nd in my second post)? There is a similar pair at the point where the knuckle guard meets the pommel, barely visible in the 4th photo of my first post. They are hardly decorative, yet are so small I can't imagine their having anything tied through them. I noticed that celtan's very similar sword lacks them.

I think they are for fixing the leather liner that would have been present inside the guard.

I think you can see the fixing in one of the images on this example...http://www.oldswords.com/database/vi....php?id=132088

I guess the liner could have been attached differently by each manufacturer?

10th August 2009, 10:41 AM	#2
Mark Cloke Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 4	Hello, I would put your sword circa 1845-1860. Firmin was at 153 Strand (amongst other addresses) from 1783 - 1894. "Firmin & Sons" would probably indicate a date between 1839-1879. As has already been said your sword in an 1845 pattern blade. Wilkinson started the tradition of the brass "Proof" slug in about 1845 which was then copied by other manufacturers. I would also suggest that the sword was probably made by Mole's of Birmingham bassed on the proof slug design. The hinged flap on the guard was officially discontinued in 1852 but as swords were a private purchase for officers they had some room for personal choice and I have seen many post 1852 swords with the flap. I would personally date you sword from circa 1845-1860 The name on the scabbard of E & W Seagrove is probably "Seagrove, Edwin & William" who traded from 22 & 23 Common Hard from 1852-1859 which would fit in with the approx age of your sword. If the scabbard is original to the blade then you can narrow the dates down. They were mainly a Naval Outfitters in Portsmouth so this may indicate a naval link or it could be that the sword/scabbard was purchased in a hurry before boarding a transport ship. (Most of the dates for the makers above come from Swords for Sea Service by May & Annis. You can also find them on my website www.oldswords.com) Last edited by Mark Cloke; 10th August 2009 at 03:10 PM.

10th August 2009, 02:25 PM	#3
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hmmm, interesting. That would also make mine a 1852-76 Victorian sword, with a Birmingham-made Mole blade. Best M Attached Images

7th August 2009, 11:14 PM	#1
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Mark, Firman & Sons 153 Strand & 13 Conduit St. probably Dates to around 1836-1837. Firman, Philip &Sons with the same address dates 1845-1850 Seagrove W. & E. 22&23 Common Hard, Portsea dates 1852-1854. The Proof mark is from Mole. Putting this together the manufacturer was the Birmingham Co. Mole sold buy the outfitter Firman and Sons around 1837-1850, with a replaced later scabbard from Seagrove. Hope this Helps. Jeff

10th August 2009, 08:01 PM	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Thanks, everyone. As always, the forumites are a fountain of information! One further question: Any idea what the two side-by-side holes are in the guard (visible in the 5th photo in my first post, and the 3nd in my second post)? There is a similar pair at the point where the knuckle guard meets the pommel, barely visible in the 4th photo of my first post. They are hardly decorative, yet are so small I can't imagine their having anything tied through them. I noticed that celtan's very similar sword lacks them.