Gunfighters and notches in grips

[potapych]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

There is only one gun I can think of off-hand with notches, in this case filed into the side of the trigger-guard, and this was from an earlier time, and was a full-stock plains rifle owned at one time by Joe Meek.

Hi Kids,

Reading through this thread I was reminded that I have a similarly notched trigger guard. The weapon is a half-stock .54 Cal. Plains Rifle. I often wondered what their significance was and surmise they may represent grizzlies, anything else would have been too common a target in those days, (including, unfortunately, Native Americans...) Personally, I just don't see mountain men, people of the stature of Joe Meek, notching their guns to commemorate killing a fellow human.

Ray

[VANDOO]

I TALKED TO A FRIEND OF MINE WHO WRITES BOOKS ON OUTLAWS MOSTLY THE MORE FAMOUS ONES. HE SAID HE WAS SURPRIZED WHEN HE STARTED DOING RESEARCH FOR HIS BOOKS YEARS AGO THAT THERE WERE NOT LOTS OF INSTANCES OF NOTCHES ON GUNS. HE SAID IT WAS MOSTLY JUST POPULAR FICTION MADE UP BY WRITERS OF THE TIMES. HE SAID OUT OF OVER ONE THOUSAND OUTLAWS AND GUNMEN HE RESEARCHED THERE WERE ONLY TWO DOCUMENTED CASES BUT THEY WERE MINOR OUTLAWS AND NOT ONES HE USED IN HIS BOOKS SO COULD NOT GIVE ME ANY DETAILS.
IN CASE SOMEONE LIKES TO READ UP ON GUNFIGHTERS AND OUTLAWS I WILL LIST TWO OF HIS BOOKS
1. 100 OKLAHOMA OUTLAWS, GANGSTERS AND LAWMEN 1839-1939, BY DAN ANDERSON WITH LAURENCE YADON

2. 200 TEXAS OUTLAWS AND LAWMEN 1835-1935, BY LAURENCE J. YADON WITH DAN ANDERSON

HE HAS WRITTEN OTHER BOOKS ON THE WEST AND THE TWO AUTHORS OFTEN COLLABORATE ON REASERCH AND WRITEING PROJECTS. THEY ONLY WRITE STORIES THAT THEY CAN BACK UP WITH FACTS SO THESE BOOKS ARE NOT FICTION AND DON'T READ LIKE A WESTERN OR ROMANCE NOVEL. IF THEY USE SOMETHING THAT CAN NOT BE CONFIRMED THEY WILL SO STATE IN THE BOOK.
UNFORTUNATELY HE DIDN'T REMEMBER THE INFO ON THE TWO CASES OF NOTCHES IN GUNS BUT SAID HE WOULD LOOK AND SEE IF HE COULD FIND IT WHEN TIME PERMITS.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by potapych

Hi Kids,

Reading through this thread I was reminded that I have a similarly notched trigger guard. The weapon is a half-stock .54 Cal. Plains Rifle. I often wondered what their significance was and surmise they may represent grizzlies, anything else would have been too common a target in those days, (including, unfortunately, Native Americans...) Personally, I just don't see mountain men, people of the stature of Joe Meek, notching their guns to commemorate killing a fellow human.

Ray

It's great to see this thread revived, thank you so much Ray! and very well observed on the rather unseemly and despicable thought of personal bravado at the expense of the loss of a human life. In most cases, I think this is the proper perspective, and even one of probably the most ruthless of the renowned gunfighters, John Wesley Hardin, we have seen that his actual weapons did not bear notches on them. This emphasizes the distinct licence used by enthusiastic writers to dramatize and sensationalize thier work.

As also noted earlier, Wyatt Earp, when asked about notches in his gun by one such inquisitive writer, became enraged at such a suggestion and roared, "only a tinhorn would do such a thing!".

Thank you for sharing the beauty of a Plains rifle! and for showing these curious triggerguard notches so clearly. I do believe these are likely marks for downing a formidable predator such as a grizzly, rather than a tally simply for game, in which case the stock removal from the guard would probably eliminate the guard altogether.

Now in the case of earlier mention of grisly (the other kind) tallies, in which certain frontiersmen counted scalps taken as trophies in combat against American Indian warriors, the unfortunate practice that was brought to them with European contact, I believe there were probably instances of this.
In these cases, the stock was tallied, not the triggerguard.

I believe that the marks centered on the triggerguard were placed there strategically as representation of something, and at the trigger location, it would represent the key instrument of the deadly achievement in use of the gun, the trigger.

It seems there have often been suggestions of notching or deliberate markings of this kind being measurement of some kind or indicators placed pragmatically for some now unknown use. One rather more elaborate example of such key marking were the scales found on usually Italian stiletto blades, later discovered to be measurements for powder charges for gunners.
Obviously that is not the case here, but mentioned only as illustration to describe such practices.

Do you think there could be any such value implied in trigger notches? I know little on guns and actual shooting, and would not know of any practice or function that would require actual marking for use, such as positioning of the trigger itself?

Thank you again Ray!
All the best,
Jim

[pallas]

sorry if this was already brought up, but there where a few mafia figures from the 1910's-1930s who notched their trigger guards everytime they killed another mobster/cop. one of these guns, a 12 gauge shotgun used in the st valentine's day massacre in chicago was recently profiled on "history detectives" on PBS.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by pallas

sorry if this was already brought up, but there where a few mafia figures from the 1910's-1930s who notched their trigger guards everytime they killed another mobster/cop. one of these guns, a 12 gauge shotgun used in the st valentine's day massacre in chicago was recently profiled on "history detectives" on PBS.

I had not heard of this Pallas, and thank you for noting it. I'd like to know more on this shotgun, its the first I've heard of it, as well as on the 'mafia' using this practice.
In speaking with a friend who used to be a police officer, he told me about a fellow officer who had shot and killed an individual in self defense. He was so distraught over the event that he immediately got rid of the gun, and felt that the gun would bring bad karma or something to that effect.
I think we have noted in certain tribal cultures, after battle, especially if enemies were killed, the warrior had to observe certain rituals, especially with the weapon, as it was tainted by the spirits of those it had killed. Most of these perspectives seem to reflect thinking quite contrary to the bravado often portrayed.

All best regards,
Jim

[potapych]

Perhaps these instances of 'record keeping' or tallies became a dramatic vehicle in the embellished tales of the dime novel writers and became part of the 'gunfighters myth'.

Hi Jim,

While the tally stick's origins reside somewhere back in the dimmer history of mankind, (the earliest surviving example about 18,000 years old), I think it helpful to consider it's uses when trying to analyze the concept of using tally marks on a gun.

Generally these may be broken down into either: an aide to memory when the amount is likely to change irregularly and/or over a protracted time, contains a large number, is being transmitted as a message or if the users are illiterate. The other possible use is the concept of "bragging rights".

In the first instance, the likeliest use would be the first example: an aide to memory when the amount is likely to change irregularly and/or over a protracted time and that use does not necessarily exclude the "bragging rights" concept.

In either case, we could agree that they would signify a momentous event, in the case of a mountain man or guide it could be the downing of a Grizzly (Ursus arctos horribilis) or even the number of round trips over the Overland Trail or number of attendances of the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous, etc.

To find such marks upon Plains Rifles, (not exactly combat weapons, unless of desperation), and have them signify "killings" of humans, causes me to imagine the following conversation: "Yep, this notch here, this was old Sam. You remember, that drunken fella that lived out behind the livery stable? Came at me blind drunk one afternoon with a pitchfork and wouldn't drop it so I had to do him in." Pretty far-fetched.

The other possibility, killings of Native Americans, is likewise somewhat put to rest by the fact that Joeseph Meeks had those two marks on his trigger guard yet he was married to the daughter of Nez Perce chief Kowesota.

Likewise, I think "another notch in his gun" was probably a figure of speech applied to gunfighters and it worked it's way into a myth.

any practice or function that would require actual marking for use, such as positioning of the trigger itself?

In so far as using those trigger guard notches for some other practical aspect than "tallying"; I am fairly conversant with firearms and there quite a few instances of tactile marks on both them and other accoutrements but in my experience they are usually protrusions, as those are much easier to detect than depressions and are of use so one can keep their eye on the target or locate a reference in the dark. As far as the trigger and guard goes; when one depends on a gun as a tool you develop a familiarity that becomes subconscious, so I cannot think of a practical use for any marks being located there.

Thank *you* for raising this subject, it is always an interesting exercise to try and put ourselves into the minds of our forefathers.

Best,

Ray

[pallas]

http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetect...entinesday.pdf




here is a transcript of the episode of history detectives in question about the notched st valentines day massacre shotgun (i wasent able to find any video unfortunatly)

[Jim McDougall]

Eloquently worded and reasonably thought out observations Ray, and it really is great to examine these subtle features and elements associated with antique weapons to discover more on what our ancestors were truly like. It has always seemed to me that truth and reality are far more interesting than hyperbole and fantastically embellished tales.
I have been fascinated with history for as long as I can remember, and seeing the reality of the events brought into comprehensible dimension is a great way to better understand historical figures, and that they were really just like us.
I think one of the great illustrations of this was presented well in "The Alamo", and Davy Crockett being as amazed at the embellished tales about him in drama as the people thrilled with this mythical persona.

Thank you for the comments on possible practical reasons for notching on triggerguards, and it is good to see more accurate perspective on such probability. Good notes on the tally system also, apparantly the tally stick was a Native American practice used more in certain games used by young boys, but for them even games became applicable in honing skills that would become essential as grown warriors. It seems reasonable that these tally systems may have evolved from early civilization much in the manner you have described.

Barry, thank you for the comments and for adding those titles, I really look forward to hearing more on those obscure instances of notching, which indeed do seem more from later individuals adopting features from the well known dime novels.

Thanks again Pallas for the heads up on the St.Valentines Day massacre weapon, I'd sure like to find out more on the notches on that. It seems puzzling this 'guage' was kept secluded for so many years. There does seem to be every bit as much myth as with gunfighters in many cases, and while the 'mobsters' on the 20's and 30's were pretty ruthless, I would be surprised if this type bravado would have been applied by true mafiosa. The well known hoods from the midwest might have been more likely, and the arrogant bravado of figures such as Bonnie & Clyde more likely, though as far as known did not notch guns or keep tally.

All best regards,
Jim