Chinese sabre blade believed of late Ming dynasty with svastika markings

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2009, 10:55 PM

Thank you so much guys! I really appreciate the positive responses, and well placed notes. As most here know I have always been pretty much obsessed with the symbolism found on weapons, and admit that I often will stretch things a bit in theories and trying to find connections between cultures.

It would seem that in many cases, very simple designs have indeed developed divergently in various cultures, with the most amazing result being the evidence of man's inherent search for meaning in most everything.
It seems the design for the swastika derives quite likely from simple geometrics seen in crossing of material as in basket weaving. This may well explain the appearance of the design in American Indian cultures such as the Navajo and Hopi, where these materials were well known. As well stated in one article, this imagery would easily apply in most native cultures worldwide.

As I had noted earlier, the symbol was known in the ancient Greek world as the gammodion, and derives from certainly much earlier forms. The German archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann found these symbols in Troy and Mycenae in the 1870's, and suggested that it was an Aryan religious symbol. This perception of course took on its rather distorted course to the misperceptions of Aryan themed cults and into its unfortunate incarnation symbolically.

My interest in the symbol, as a Buddhist symbol, and in its application in the motif on weapons, would be why are these sequenced in the numeric five?
The three is of course well known symbolically in religions, and we have determined that the symbol itself is generally held as a symbol of good fortune, success and positive force.
This blade is early, and seems to date into the Ming era, and as is typically the case, refurbished at a later time with preponderance of Buddhist symbols in the mounts, which suggests it remained in its original orientation with its subsequent owners.
I wish I had images of the fully mounted sabre, or could show the entire blade, which as noted did have a yelman, as recorded in notes.
I never know what I'll find in these heaps of old files!!

All best regards, and thank you again guys!
Jim

dralin23 · 2nd August 2009, 06:23 PM

hi all,
here is an picture from an japanese armor from the 17.th.ct.
i saw these armour for some years by an german antique seller from japanese arms. it is an phantastic item from an very good iron work and the silver "koftgari" was also very magnificence! these armour shows also these budhistic svastica symbols and it is very pitty that the most people in the western world think by these symbol at first at nazi german symbol. the root from these svastica is sooo old and you cane find it not only in the bhudistic world also the in the german ore celtic mythologie can you find these symbol. i saw some very old celtic things decorated with the svastica.

Battara · 2nd August 2009, 10:03 PM

There is some evidence that the Greeks got this symbol from contact with India, perhaps even before Alexander the Great.

Tatyana Dianova · 3rd August 2009, 09:29 PM

Another Japanese example: svastika theme on the 'habaki'

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd August 2009, 09:46 PM

Tatyana, your pictures are, as always, very good

.
Like Battara writes - the svastica is ancient, very ancient, and it is likely that he is right about from where it origins.
Like always we have many questions, but very few answers.

Jeff Pringle · 3rd August 2009, 10:00 PM

Detail of Plate LXI from Behmer’s “Das zweischneidige Schwert der germanischen Völkerwanderungszeit”

Jim McDougall · 3rd August 2009, 11:34 PM

Thanks again everybody for the ongoing and great responses!
It is truly interesting that the Greeks likely acquired this symbolism from India, and of course probably from thier incursions.
Great illustrations of the Japanese use of the symbol, which I had not been too familiar with, and these are really awe inspiring.....that habaki is unbelievable Tatyana! As Jens notes, your photos really are magnificent.

Jeff, the Behmer photo really is interesting. Does it note what period this element is from, and more about it? Thank you for posting that. As I had found earlier, these symbols seem to have early origins into the Neolithic period.

All best regards,
Jim

2nd August 2009, 06:23 PM	#2
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 210	hi all, here is an picture from an japanese armor from the 17.th.ct. i saw these armour for some years by an german antique seller from japanese arms. it is an phantastic item from an very good iron work and the silver "koftgari" was also very magnificence! these armour shows also these budhistic svastica symbols and it is very pitty that the most people in the western world think by these symbol at first at nazi german symbol. the root from these svastica is sooo old and you cane find it not only in the bhudistic world also the in the german ore celtic mythologie can you find these symbol. i saw some very old celtic things decorated with the svastica. Attached Images

3rd August 2009, 09:29 PM	#4
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 737	Another Japanese example: svastika theme on the 'habaki' Attached Images

3rd August 2009, 09:46 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Tatyana, your pictures are, as always, very good. Like Battara writes - the svastica is ancient, very ancient, and it is likely that he is right about from where it origins. Like always we have many questions, but very few answers.

3rd August 2009, 10:00 PM	#6
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	Detail of Plate LXI from Behmer’s “Das zweischneidige Schwert der germanischen Völkerwanderungszeit” Attached Images

31st July 2009, 10:55 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,467	Thank you so much guys! I really appreciate the positive responses, and well placed notes. As most here know I have always been pretty much obsessed with the symbolism found on weapons, and admit that I often will stretch things a bit in theories and trying to find connections between cultures. It would seem that in many cases, very simple designs have indeed developed divergently in various cultures, with the most amazing result being the evidence of man's inherent search for meaning in most everything. It seems the design for the swastika derives quite likely from simple geometrics seen in crossing of material as in basket weaving. This may well explain the appearance of the design in American Indian cultures such as the Navajo and Hopi, where these materials were well known. As well stated in one article, this imagery would easily apply in most native cultures worldwide. As I had noted earlier, the symbol was known in the ancient Greek world as the gammodion, and derives from certainly much earlier forms. The German archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann found these symbols in Troy and Mycenae in the 1870's, and suggested that it was an Aryan religious symbol. This perception of course took on its rather distorted course to the misperceptions of Aryan themed cults and into its unfortunate incarnation symbolically. My interest in the symbol, as a Buddhist symbol, and in its application in the motif on weapons, would be why are these sequenced in the numeric five? The three is of course well known symbolically in religions, and we have determined that the symbol itself is generally held as a symbol of good fortune, success and positive force. This blade is early, and seems to date into the Ming era, and as is typically the case, refurbished at a later time with preponderance of Buddhist symbols in the mounts, which suggests it remained in its original orientation with its subsequent owners. I wish I had images of the fully mounted sabre, or could show the entire blade, which as noted did have a yelman, as recorded in notes. I never know what I'll find in these heaps of old files!! All best regards, and thank you again guys! Jim

2nd August 2009, 10:03 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	There is some evidence that the Greeks got this symbol from contact with India, perhaps even before Alexander the Great.

3rd August 2009, 11:34 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,467	Thanks again everybody for the ongoing and great responses! It is truly interesting that the Greeks likely acquired this symbolism from India, and of course probably from thier incursions. Great illustrations of the Japanese use of the symbol, which I had not been too familiar with, and these are really awe inspiring.....that habaki is unbelievable Tatyana! As Jens notes, your photos really are magnificent. Jeff, the Behmer photo really is interesting. Does it note what period this element is from, and more about it? Thank you for posting that. As I had found earlier, these symbols seem to have early origins into the Neolithic period. All best regards, Jim