Chinese sabre blade believed of late Ming dynasty with svastika markings

[KuKulzA28]

Jim, you mention the americas....

I don't know if this'll be any help, but I'll give input and I hope it'll spark more discussion

A symbol for Hunab-Ku (pseudo-Mayan god) can be found and it seems like almost a svastika/ying-yang. The reason I say it is a pseudo-Mayan-god is because it does not seem to appear in the classic Mayan pantheon. It's origin may be from the efforts of Catholic missionaries in converting native people. Itzamna was similar to the descriptions of Hunab-Ku and it is believed that the missionaries sought to make conversion easier by taking an already revered and powerful god and morphing it into the all-mighty universal god for the Mayan converts. Of course I don't know much about Mayan religion...

However I used to be a voracious reader on anything Mayan. I am still very intrigued by their culture. My memory on them isn't the best right now since my main ethno-martial-historical interest is in S. China and the SE Asian archipegalo, I do remember a few things.... It seems Itzamna was known back in the Classic era when Yaxchilan, Tikal, Palenque, etc. were powerful and locked in deadly and highly organized political wars for dominance (prestige, trade routes, resources, sacrifices, manpower, etc.etc.)
However the Itza as a people seemed to have been invaders of some sort. The Itza came in with their vicious warfare, their bows and arrows, and their great skill with the atlatl and carved out their own kingdoms. This was a time when "Mexican" invaders were plunging into the Mayan heartland and setting up their own countries. It was during this time that Mayan cities began to exhibit more and more defensive earthworks and walls and their classic "killing alleys" (double wall areas). Warfare shifted from the seasonal campaigns and night-raids by spear, knife, club, and atlatl (hul'che) armed warriors and levies to proffessional and fierce warriors also armed with bow and arrow. Trade shifted from overland routes to the coast, and the lowlands ceased to be the major center of civilization. Rather, the north had powerful cities like Chichen Itza and Mayapan, and the far south in the mountains were Mexicanized kingdoms in constant rivalry. The populations of the lowlands in the middle died or dispersed and returned to the simple village life they had led before the first step-pyramid was made.
Perhaps Itzamna grew more powerful due to more intense worship by the Itza? Perhaps this is why he was a good candidate for the missionaries to morph into a Mayan Catholic God?

Don't take my word for it, like I said, I've forgotten a lot... or maybe it's just stored in my head somewhere

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much guys! I really appreciate the positive responses, and well placed notes. As most here know I have always been pretty much obsessed with the symbolism found on weapons, and admit that I often will stretch things a bit in theories and trying to find connections between cultures.

It would seem that in many cases, very simple designs have indeed developed divergently in various cultures, with the most amazing result being the evidence of man's inherent search for meaning in most everything.
It seems the design for the swastika derives quite likely from simple geometrics seen in crossing of material as in basket weaving. This may well explain the appearance of the design in American Indian cultures such as the Navajo and Hopi, where these materials were well known. As well stated in one article, this imagery would easily apply in most native cultures worldwide.

As I had noted earlier, the symbol was known in the ancient Greek world as the gammodion, and derives from certainly much earlier forms. The German archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann found these symbols in Troy and Mycenae in the 1870's, and suggested that it was an Aryan religious symbol. This perception of course took on its rather distorted course to the misperceptions of Aryan themed cults and into its unfortunate incarnation symbolically.

My interest in the symbol, as a Buddhist symbol, and in its application in the motif on weapons, would be why are these sequenced in the numeric five?
The three is of course well known symbolically in religions, and we have determined that the symbol itself is generally held as a symbol of good fortune, success and positive force.
This blade is early, and seems to date into the Ming era, and as is typically the case, refurbished at a later time with preponderance of Buddhist symbols in the mounts, which suggests it remained in its original orientation with its subsequent owners.
I wish I had images of the fully mounted sabre, or could show the entire blade, which as noted did have a yelman, as recorded in notes.
I never know what I'll find in these heaps of old files!!

All best regards, and thank you again guys!
Jim

[dralin23]

hi all,
here is an picture from an japanese armor from the 17.th.ct.
i saw these armour for some years by an german antique seller from japanese arms. it is an phantastic item from an very good iron work and the silver "koftgari" was also very magnificence! these armour shows also these budhistic svastica symbols and it is very pitty that the most people in the western world think by these symbol at first at nazi german symbol. the root from these svastica is sooo old and you cane find it not only in the bhudistic world also the in the german ore celtic mythologie can you find these symbol. i saw some very old celtic things decorated with the svastica.

[Battara]

There is some evidence that the Greeks got this symbol from contact with India, perhaps even before Alexander the Great.

[Tatyana Dianova]

Another Japanese example: svastika theme on the 'habaki'

[Jens Nordlunde]

Tatyana, your pictures are, as always, very good.
Like Battara writes - the svastica is ancient, very ancient, and it is likely that he is right about from where it origins.
Like always we have many questions, but very few answers.

[Jeff Pringle]

Detail of Plate LXI from Behmer’s “Das zweischneidige Schwert der germanischen Völkerwanderungszeit”