Chinese sabre blade believed of late Ming dynasty with svastika markings

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2009, 05:25 PM

Apparantly file was too large so here is the blade:

Battara · 31st July 2009, 06:18 PM

I agree with you Jim. Buddhist influence in China was strong and I believe also that this is a Buddhist derived talisman.

kisak · 31st July 2009, 09:40 PM

From what I've understood, the swastika is still commonly used on maps in Japan today to mark the location of Buddhist temples, so the connection seems to be very much there in our time at least.

I've also noticed how the swastika also appears in key-fret designs, and not just on Asian objects. There's a viking sword in the historical Museum in Stockholm which has the pommel decorated in such a fashion. Might be one of those symbols which are basic enough in their geometrical shape that they an pop up every here and there independently.

KuKulzA28 · 31st July 2009, 09:52 PM

Jim, you mention the americas....

I don't know if this'll be any help, but I'll give input and I hope it'll spark more discussion

A symbol for Hunab-Ku (pseudo-Mayan god) can be found and it seems like almost a svastika/ying-yang. The reason I say it is a pseudo-Mayan-god is because it does not seem to appear in the classic Mayan pantheon. It's origin may be from the efforts of Catholic missionaries in converting native people. Itzamna was similar to the descriptions of Hunab-Ku and it is believed that the missionaries sought to make conversion easier by taking an already revered and powerful god and morphing it into the all-mighty universal god for the Mayan converts. Of course I don't know much about Mayan religion...

However I used to be a voracious reader on anything Mayan. I am still very intrigued by their culture. My memory on them isn't the best right now since my main ethno-martial-historical interest is in S. China and the SE Asian archipegalo, I do remember a few things.... It seems Itzamna was known back in the Classic era when Yaxchilan, Tikal, Palenque, etc. were powerful and locked in deadly and highly organized political wars for dominance (prestige, trade routes, resources, sacrifices, manpower, etc.etc.)
However the Itza as a people seemed to have been invaders of some sort. The Itza came in with their vicious warfare, their bows and arrows, and their great skill with the atlatl and carved out their own kingdoms. This was a time when "Mexican" invaders were plunging into the Mayan heartland and setting up their own countries. It was during this time that Mayan cities began to exhibit more and more defensive earthworks and walls and their classic "killing alleys" (double wall areas). Warfare shifted from the seasonal campaigns and night-raids by spear, knife, club, and atlatl (hul'che) armed warriors and levies to proffessional and fierce warriors also armed with bow and arrow. Trade shifted from overland routes to the coast, and the lowlands ceased to be the major center of civilization. Rather, the north had powerful cities like Chichen Itza and Mayapan, and the far south in the mountains were Mexicanized kingdoms in constant rivalry. The populations of the lowlands in the middle died or dispersed and returned to the simple village life they had led before the first step-pyramid was made.
Perhaps Itzamna grew more powerful due to more intense worship by the Itza? Perhaps this is why he was a good candidate for the missionaries to morph into a Mayan Catholic God?

Don't take my word for it, like I said, I've forgotten a lot... or maybe it's just stored in my head somewhere

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2009, 10:55 PM

Thank you so much guys! I really appreciate the positive responses, and well placed notes. As most here know I have always been pretty much obsessed with the symbolism found on weapons, and admit that I often will stretch things a bit in theories and trying to find connections between cultures.

It would seem that in many cases, very simple designs have indeed developed divergently in various cultures, with the most amazing result being the evidence of man's inherent search for meaning in most everything.
It seems the design for the swastika derives quite likely from simple geometrics seen in crossing of material as in basket weaving. This may well explain the appearance of the design in American Indian cultures such as the Navajo and Hopi, where these materials were well known. As well stated in one article, this imagery would easily apply in most native cultures worldwide.

As I had noted earlier, the symbol was known in the ancient Greek world as the gammodion, and derives from certainly much earlier forms. The German archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann found these symbols in Troy and Mycenae in the 1870's, and suggested that it was an Aryan religious symbol. This perception of course took on its rather distorted course to the misperceptions of Aryan themed cults and into its unfortunate incarnation symbolically.

My interest in the symbol, as a Buddhist symbol, and in its application in the motif on weapons, would be why are these sequenced in the numeric five?
The three is of course well known symbolically in religions, and we have determined that the symbol itself is generally held as a symbol of good fortune, success and positive force.
This blade is early, and seems to date into the Ming era, and as is typically the case, refurbished at a later time with preponderance of Buddhist symbols in the mounts, which suggests it remained in its original orientation with its subsequent owners.
I wish I had images of the fully mounted sabre, or could show the entire blade, which as noted did have a yelman, as recorded in notes.
I never know what I'll find in these heaps of old files!!

All best regards, and thank you again guys!
Jim

dralin23 · 2nd August 2009, 06:23 PM

hi all,
here is an picture from an japanese armor from the 17.th.ct.
i saw these armour for some years by an german antique seller from japanese arms. it is an phantastic item from an very good iron work and the silver "koftgari" was also very magnificence! these armour shows also these budhistic svastica symbols and it is very pitty that the most people in the western world think by these symbol at first at nazi german symbol. the root from these svastica is sooo old and you cane find it not only in the bhudistic world also the in the german ore celtic mythologie can you find these symbol. i saw some very old celtic things decorated with the svastica.

Battara · 2nd August 2009, 10:03 PM

There is some evidence that the Greeks got this symbol from contact with India, perhaps even before Alexander the Great.

Tatyana Dianova · 3rd August 2009, 09:29 PM

Another Japanese example: svastika theme on the 'habaki'

kahnjar1 · 30th November 2020, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I agree with you Jim. Buddhist influence in China was strong and I believe also that this is a Buddhist derived talisman.

Yes this is a Buddhist Talisman.
The giant Buddha on Lantau Island Hong Kong has a "reversed" version on his chest.
Stu

ariel · 1st December 2020, 04:15 AM

Interesting...
The right-sided version ( clockwise) in Hinduism is a symbol of Surya( sun) and of good luck, prosperity etc. In short , all the good stuff.
In contrast, left-sided ( counter clockwise) is associated with night, darkness and Kali.

Never thought deeply about this subject, but what is this left-sided one doing on Buddha’s chest? Unless, of course, the pic was reversed:-) This is impossible, because his right arm is raised.

On the other hand, Nazi swastika was right-sided. Much good did it do.....

kahnjar1 · 1st December 2020, 05:44 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauwastika
Origins and history can be found here. In Buddhism it is regarded as a GOOD Talisman, hence the appearance on the Lantau Buddha.
Stu

ariel · 1st December 2020, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

In Buddhism it is regarded as a GOOD Talisman, hence the appearance on the Lantau Buddha.
Stu

And when something bad happens to a Buddhist, the Hinduist just chuckles : “ I told you so, but you did not believe me” :-)

Philip · 1st December 2020, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Interesting...
The right-sided version ( clockwise) in Hinduism is a symbol of Surya( sun) and of good luck, prosperity etc. In short , all the good stuff.
In contrast, left-sided ( counter clockwise) is associated with night, darkness and Kali.

Never thought deeply about this subject, but what is this left-sided one doing on Buddha’s chest? Unless, of course, the pic was reversed:-) This is impossible, because his right arm is raised.

It appears both ways in Buddhist iconography, and both are counted among the 64 sacred emblems on Buddha's foot, as depicted in talismanic representations.

Kubur · 1st December 2020, 08:11 AM

I visited many Roman temples with swastika.

A bit older than Buddhism, Jainism has swastika for symbol.
I don't know if the Greeks or Romans brought it back in their "suitcases"...

As mentioned by David, Swastika is a very old symbol and a very simple geometric design, related to wheel, sun, life... and used by many cultures.
From America to Japan...
So I won't venture in explanations or influences...

fernando · 1st December 2020, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Interesting...
The right-sided version ( clockwise) in Hinduism is a symbol of Surya( sun) and of good luck, prosperity etc. In short , all the good stuff.
In contrast, left-sided ( counter clockwise) is associated with night, darkness and Kali.

Never thought deeply about this subject, but what is this left-sided one doing on Buddha’s chest? Unless, of course, the pic was reversed:-) This is impossible, because his right arm is raised...

Countless interpretations seem to appear, one more in favor of Lord Buddha, on what the Swastica version (counter clockwie) concerns.
... As also variants in form, found all over the world, in rock art, church doors, ceilings, etc. We find them often here, in Archeologic sites.

.

Interested Party · 11th December 2020, 03:49 PM

I remember for Celts it was a symbol of death and rebirth. Related to the sun and possibly fortunes wheel. A legacy of an Indo-European culture that produced both Celtic and Sanskrit. Sorry I can't site sources, but university was a good bit ago

josh stout · 14th December 2020, 05:33 PM

I would like to respond to Jim's earlier question.

"My interest in the symbol, as a Buddhist symbol, and in its application in the motif on weapons, would be why are these sequenced in the numeric five?
The three is of course well known symbolically in religions, and we have determined that the symbol itself is generally held as a symbol of good fortune, success and positive force."

Several posts have mentioned the swastika as a sun symbol, but the four quadrants represent thus sun in relation to the four seasons of the earth. The angled arms represent the sun going around the earth (it looked like that anyway). So it is a symbol of the sun and the earth, much like the Celtic cross (cross in a circle).

So why have five of them? In Chinese numerology, the number four is associated with the earth, but is considered unlucky because it is the earth without humans. The number five specifically represents our five pointed shape, and is considered the human number. There are of course many important "fives" in Chinese mythology, such as the five elements, but in my opinion, the maker of this sword wanted to avoid an unlucky association with the number four. Four is the number of death, and that is a bit intense on the side of a blade.

31st July 2009, 05:25 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Apparantly file was too large so here is the blade: Attached Images

2nd August 2009, 06:23 PM	#6
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	hi all, here is an picture from an japanese armor from the 17.th.ct. i saw these armour for some years by an german antique seller from japanese arms. it is an phantastic item from an very good iron work and the silver "koftgari" was also very magnificence! these armour shows also these budhistic svastica symbols and it is very pitty that the most people in the western world think by these symbol at first at nazi german symbol. the root from these svastica is sooo old and you cane find it not only in the bhudistic world also the in the german ore celtic mythologie can you find these symbol. i saw some very old celtic things decorated with the svastica. Attached Images

3rd August 2009, 09:29 PM	#8
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 735	Another Japanese example: svastika theme on the 'habaki' Attached Images

1st December 2020, 08:11 AM	#14
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I visited many Roman temples with swastika. A bit older than Buddhism, Jainism has swastika for symbol. I don't know if the Greeks or Romans brought it back in their "suitcases"... As mentioned by David, Swastika is a very old symbol and a very simple geometric design, related to wheel, sun, life... and used by many cultures. From America to Japan... So I won't venture in explanations or influences... Attached Images

31st July 2009, 06:18 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I agree with you Jim. Buddhist influence in China was strong and I believe also that this is a Buddhist derived talisman.

31st July 2009, 09:40 PM	#3
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	From what I've understood, the swastika is still commonly used on maps in Japan today to mark the location of Buddhist temples, so the connection seems to be very much there in our time at least. I've also noticed how the swastika also appears in key-fret designs, and not just on Asian objects. There's a viking sword in the historical Museum in Stockholm which has the pommel decorated in such a fashion. Might be one of those symbols which are basic enough in their geometrical shape that they an pop up every here and there independently.

31st July 2009, 09:52 PM	#4
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Jim, you mention the americas.... I don't know if this'll be any help, but I'll give input and I hope it'll spark more discussion A symbol for Hunab-Ku (pseudo-Mayan god) can be found and it seems like almost a svastika/ying-yang. The reason I say it is a pseudo-Mayan-god is because it does not seem to appear in the classic Mayan pantheon. It's origin may be from the efforts of Catholic missionaries in converting native people. Itzamna was similar to the descriptions of Hunab-Ku and it is believed that the missionaries sought to make conversion easier by taking an already revered and powerful god and morphing it into the all-mighty universal god for the Mayan converts. Of course I don't know much about Mayan religion... However I used to be a voracious reader on anything Mayan. I am still very intrigued by their culture. My memory on them isn't the best right now since my main ethno-martial-historical interest is in S. China and the SE Asian archipegalo, I do remember a few things.... It seems Itzamna was known back in the Classic era when Yaxchilan, Tikal, Palenque, etc. were powerful and locked in deadly and highly organized political wars for dominance (prestige, trade routes, resources, sacrifices, manpower, etc.etc.) However the Itza as a people seemed to have been invaders of some sort. The Itza came in with their vicious warfare, their bows and arrows, and their great skill with the atlatl and carved out their own kingdoms. This was a time when "Mexican" invaders were plunging into the Mayan heartland and setting up their own countries. It was during this time that Mayan cities began to exhibit more and more defensive earthworks and walls and their classic "killing alleys" (double wall areas). Warfare shifted from the seasonal campaigns and night-raids by spear, knife, club, and atlatl (hul'che) armed warriors and levies to proffessional and fierce warriors also armed with bow and arrow. Trade shifted from overland routes to the coast, and the lowlands ceased to be the major center of civilization. Rather, the north had powerful cities like Chichen Itza and Mayapan, and the far south in the mountains were Mexicanized kingdoms in constant rivalry. The populations of the lowlands in the middle died or dispersed and returned to the simple village life they had led before the first step-pyramid was made. Perhaps Itzamna grew more powerful due to more intense worship by the Itza? Perhaps this is why he was a good candidate for the missionaries to morph into a Mayan Catholic God? Don't take my word for it, like I said, I've forgotten a lot... or maybe it's just stored in my head somewhere

31st July 2009, 10:55 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Thank you so much guys! I really appreciate the positive responses, and well placed notes. As most here know I have always been pretty much obsessed with the symbolism found on weapons, and admit that I often will stretch things a bit in theories and trying to find connections between cultures. It would seem that in many cases, very simple designs have indeed developed divergently in various cultures, with the most amazing result being the evidence of man's inherent search for meaning in most everything. It seems the design for the swastika derives quite likely from simple geometrics seen in crossing of material as in basket weaving. This may well explain the appearance of the design in American Indian cultures such as the Navajo and Hopi, where these materials were well known. As well stated in one article, this imagery would easily apply in most native cultures worldwide. As I had noted earlier, the symbol was known in the ancient Greek world as the gammodion, and derives from certainly much earlier forms. The German archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann found these symbols in Troy and Mycenae in the 1870's, and suggested that it was an Aryan religious symbol. This perception of course took on its rather distorted course to the misperceptions of Aryan themed cults and into its unfortunate incarnation symbolically. My interest in the symbol, as a Buddhist symbol, and in its application in the motif on weapons, would be why are these sequenced in the numeric five? The three is of course well known symbolically in religions, and we have determined that the symbol itself is generally held as a symbol of good fortune, success and positive force. This blade is early, and seems to date into the Ming era, and as is typically the case, refurbished at a later time with preponderance of Buddhist symbols in the mounts, which suggests it remained in its original orientation with its subsequent owners. I wish I had images of the fully mounted sabre, or could show the entire blade, which as noted did have a yelman, as recorded in notes. I never know what I'll find in these heaps of old files!! All best regards, and thank you again guys! Jim

2nd August 2009, 10:03 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	There is some evidence that the Greeks got this symbol from contact with India, perhaps even before Alexander the Great.

1st December 2020, 04:15 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Interesting... The right-sided version ( clockwise) in Hinduism is a symbol of Surya( sun) and of good luck, prosperity etc. In short , all the good stuff. In contrast, left-sided ( counter clockwise) is associated with night, darkness and Kali. Never thought deeply about this subject, but what is this left-sided one doing on Buddha’s chest? Unless, of course, the pic was reversed:-) This is impossible, because his right arm is raised. On the other hand, Nazi swastika was right-sided. Much good did it do.....

1st December 2020, 05:44 AM	#11
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauwastika Origins and history can be found here. In Buddhism it is regarded as a GOOD Talisman, hence the appearance on the Lantau Buddha. Stu

11th December 2020, 03:49 PM	#16
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 493	I remember for Celts it was a symbol of death and rebirth. Related to the sun and possibly fortunes wheel. A legacy of an Indo-European culture that produced both Celtic and Sanskrit. Sorry I can't site sources, but university was a good bit ago

14th December 2020, 05:33 PM	#17
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I would like to respond to Jim's earlier question. "My interest in the symbol, as a Buddhist symbol, and in its application in the motif on weapons, would be why are these sequenced in the numeric five? The three is of course well known symbolically in religions, and we have determined that the symbol itself is generally held as a symbol of good fortune, success and positive force." Several posts have mentioned the swastika as a sun symbol, but the four quadrants represent thus sun in relation to the four seasons of the earth. The angled arms represent the sun going around the earth (it looked like that anyway). So it is a symbol of the sun and the earth, much like the Celtic cross (cross in a circle). So why have five of them? In Chinese numerology, the number four is associated with the earth, but is considered unlucky because it is the earth without humans. The number five specifically represents our five pointed shape, and is considered the human number. There are of course many important "fives" in Chinese mythology, such as the five elements, but in my opinion, the maker of this sword wanted to avoid an unlucky association with the number four. Four is the number of death, and that is a bit intense on the side of a blade.