Multi-blade daggers

TVV · 31st July 2009, 05:19 PM

Ariel,
I am with you on the sscissor katars and the multi-bladed Persian khanjars. The reason for this is that all that I have seen seem to be of very low craftsmanship. This is especially true for those Persian three-bladed khanjars - the engraving on them tends to be very crude, and not dissimilar to that found on low quality helmets and shields.
Of course, there might be examples out there that are well made with crisp and detailed engraving, but I am yet to see one.
This only makes me think that these were not intended for use within the original culture, but were rather produced to be sold to outsiders.
Best regards,
Teodor

ariel · 1st August 2009, 12:26 PM

Teodor, thanks for moral support!
All such contraptions that I've seen, are in a very good physical shape. None have signs of aging beyond those resulting from poor maintenance. None have patination or hard black rust. All have well preserved koftgari-type decoration ( those that have it to start with).
In short, all appear to date to the 20th, or the end of the 19th century at the latest.
Well, at that time fencing with 2 blades was very much outdated. Based on that, I conclude that they were never intended for practical use.

Does anybody have truly old examples?

Jim McDougall · 1st August 2009, 07:00 PM

Me too, any old examples out there?

Sikh_soldier · 2nd August 2009, 12:48 AM

Sorry guys I do not have an old example of either,

But just to add my bit, I have handled a few scissor katars and they have always been very clumsy, usually with the mechanism either broken or weak, suprisingly though I have seen a few in the collection of some veteran collectors who not only should know better, but who believe that their practical.

I dont mean to go off topic, but what about the katars with pistols attached?

Bally

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd August 2009, 12:59 PM

One of the more refined types of the so called scissor katar can be seen in Stone page 345 fig. 432.

Oriental-Arms · 3rd August 2009, 04:41 PM

I trust Ariel refered to this type of daggers.

.

This is definitely not a top quality one as we have seen on other Persian blades but it is certainly better than the average found on the market. The blade is well forged with a central rib, good sound steel, and even the central tip is better shaped than most. Unfortunately I don't have the handle and scabbard so I can not comment on their quality.

I agree that most multi blade Persian Khanjar on the market are of very low quality and produced mainly for the souvenir market, but this one at least shows that there was a base that these souvenirs copied. (As mostly happens with other souvenirs as well).

I trust this is not a fighting weapon but rather a ceremonial one, mid to late 19 C. Much similar in quality to many Persian ceremonial blades of the period.

fernando · 3rd August 2009, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sikh_soldier

...I dont mean to go off topic, but what about the katars with pistols attached? ...

Ah, those are more serious stuff, and there are irreprehensible examples out there, with pictures within reach.
OTHH, i too beleive multi bladed katars and khindjals are not (can not be) operational stuff

.
Fernando

ariel · 3rd August 2009, 10:14 PM

Yes, Artzi, this is the one; thanks for posting it.
This one may be of much better quality than the rest, but even here the mechanics would prevent its intended usage. Imagine that the central blade, with its reinforced tip, penetrates the mail. The lateral blades would come in contact with the hard surface at an angle, and the lateral vector would just bend them out of shape ( and prevent the central blade's deeper penetration).
Must be "ceremonial", which is, in many cases just a coy word
for " tourist" or " bazaar". Quality on such pieces must have differed dramatically, akin to fake Gucci bags in Bangkok or elsewhere: from $5 mass production to a top of the line $15 :-)

Jim McDougall · 3rd August 2009, 11:24 PM

This is truly an interesting interpretation of 'opening' blade, and of a form that is anything but commonly seen as far as I have known. Naturally they are represented in some references only elementally, and not as a functional or well known type of weapon.

Naturally, the term 'opening' brings to mind the much more well known spring operated anomalies in katars primarily, which open by varying means. I had not thought of multiple blades which remain in congruent position, in a blossomed fashion.
As always, Artzi astutely recognized the dilemma and came to the rescue!! Thank you Artzi.

Semantics truly are amazing, but it was fun to talk about the katars which open into three bladed weapons, and are truly intriguing in thier own right, and as seems agreed, also nonfunctional.

Best regards,
Jim

3rd August 2009, 04:41 PM	#6
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Persian five points khanjar I trust Ariel refered to this type of daggers. . This is definitely not a top quality one as we have seen on other Persian blades but it is certainly better than the average found on the market. The blade is well forged with a central rib, good sound steel, and even the central tip is better shaped than most. Unfortunately I don't have the handle and scabbard so I can not comment on their quality. I agree that most multi blade Persian Khanjar on the market are of very low quality and produced mainly for the souvenir market, but this one at least shows that there was a base that these souvenirs copied. (As mostly happens with other souvenirs as well). I trust this is not a fighting weapon but rather a ceremonial one, mid to late 19 C. Much similar in quality to many Persian ceremonial blades of the period.

31st July 2009, 05:19 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Ariel, I am with you on the sscissor katars and the multi-bladed Persian khanjars. The reason for this is that all that I have seen seem to be of very low craftsmanship. This is especially true for those Persian three-bladed khanjars - the engraving on them tends to be very crude, and not dissimilar to that found on low quality helmets and shields. Of course, there might be examples out there that are well made with crisp and detailed engraving, but I am yet to see one. This only makes me think that these were not intended for use within the original culture, but were rather produced to be sold to outsiders. Best regards, Teodor

1st August 2009, 12:26 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Teodor, thanks for moral support! All such contraptions that I've seen, are in a very good physical shape. None have signs of aging beyond those resulting from poor maintenance. None have patination or hard black rust. All have well preserved koftgari-type decoration ( those that have it to start with). In short, all appear to date to the 20th, or the end of the 19th century at the latest. Well, at that time fencing with 2 blades was very much outdated. Based on that, I conclude that they were never intended for practical use. Does anybody have truly old examples?

1st August 2009, 07:00 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Me too, any old examples out there?

2nd August 2009, 12:48 AM	#4
Sikh_soldier Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 87	Sorry guys I do not have an old example of either, But just to add my bit, I have handled a few scissor katars and they have always been very clumsy, usually with the mechanism either broken or weak, suprisingly though I have seen a few in the collection of some veteran collectors who not only should know better, but who believe that their practical. I dont mean to go off topic, but what about the katars with pistols attached? Bally

2nd August 2009, 12:59 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	One of the more refined types of the so called scissor katar can be seen in Stone page 345 fig. 432.

3rd August 2009, 10:14 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, Artzi, this is the one; thanks for posting it. This one may be of much better quality than the rest, but even here the mechanics would prevent its intended usage. Imagine that the central blade, with its reinforced tip, penetrates the mail. The lateral blades would come in contact with the hard surface at an angle, and the lateral vector would just bend them out of shape ( and prevent the central blade's deeper penetration). Must be "ceremonial", which is, in many cases just a coy word for " tourist" or " bazaar". Quality on such pieces must have differed dramatically, akin to fake Gucci bags in Bangkok or elsewhere: from $5 mass production to a top of the line $15 :-)

3rd August 2009, 11:24 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	This is truly an interesting interpretation of 'opening' blade, and of a form that is anything but commonly seen as far as I have known. Naturally they are represented in some references only elementally, and not as a functional or well known type of weapon. Naturally, the term 'opening' brings to mind the much more well known spring operated anomalies in katars primarily, which open by varying means. I had not thought of multiple blades which remain in congruent position, in a blossomed fashion. As always, Artzi astutely recognized the dilemma and came to the rescue!! Thank you Artzi. Semantics truly are amazing, but it was fun to talk about the katars which open into three bladed weapons, and are truly intriguing in thier own right, and as seems agreed, also nonfunctional. Best regards, Jim