Katzbalgers and Related Landsknecht Swords

Matchlock · 31st July 2009, 04:54 PM

Two Landsknecht swords, ca. 1510, from South German chronicles, the painting depicting a very rare trefoliate pommel in the Italian manner at the extreme right.

Michael

broadaxe · 23rd August 2009, 11:03 PM

Great subjects simply don't die.
If I recall right, the sword in post #96 has been under of much debate in another forum and found to be an aged contemporary repro, even the maker has been identified.
I was sorting my photos and found this one, from the Invalides in Paris:

Matchlock · 25th August 2009, 03:50 PM

... in the Wallace Collection, London.

Best,
Michael

Samik · 28th August 2009, 02:57 PM

Not necessary Landsknecht nor Katzbalgers , but Johann von Schwarzenberg's
Die Bambergische Peinliche Halsgerichtsordnung (Constitutio Criminalis Bambergensis) dated 1507 shows some nice messers:

Pic. 1 :Note the curved crossguard , "knifelike" hilt as well as curved blade/scabbard

Pic. 2 : shows the straight bladed variety of the messer ; note again the "knife hilt" ; the short crossguard is more typical of the earlier 15th century messers.

Pic. 3 : Throwing some (presumably, judging from the apparel) "landsknecht" type for good measure. The man on the right from the devil figure carries what appears to be an "early katzbalger". As has already been mentioned in this thread the early 16th century "landsknecht swords" seem to have only a slightly curved crossguard. Of interest is also the longer "hand n a half" grip.

Cheers ,
Samuel

Matchlock · 28th August 2009, 03:23 PM

Thank you so much, Samuel,

For the great historical illustrations and your comments!

Best,
Michael

Samik · 2nd September 2009, 03:26 PM

Dont mention it Michael

It seems however that the more complex hilted katzbalgers existed even earlier than I (we?

) thought.

A fabulous painting done by Vittore CARPACCIO called " Portrait of a Knight " dated 1510 , shows a young man clad in complete harness (- the helmet) and armed with what appears to be a fully developed katzbalger. Note the "figure-8 or S-shaped guard" as well as the distinctive pommel more typical for the mid/later part of 16th century.
Judging from the picture one could speculate that the weapon was also favoured among the men-at-arms/cream of the fighting nobility , not just the Knecht mercenaries.

Take a look:

Link to the source gallery : http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/htm.../03knight.html

Best,
Samuel

Matchlock · 2nd September 2009, 04:31 PM

Thank you so much indeed, Samuel,

That painting truly is a highly important source of illustration and I fully agree with your thesis that Katzbalgers were not only Knecht (mercenaries') weapons. If I am interpreting it right the pommel on Carpaccio's 1510 painting is gilt; we know of surviving Katzbalgers with gilt hilts and pommels, e.g. in the Vienna Leibrüstkammer.

Sure, we can imagine that some of the more successful mercenaries could afford to have the hilts of their swords gilt - or they just took one from a person they had killed. But the source you have come up with here is sensational in that it proves your surmise that the use of these swords was not limited to the lower people!

Thanks again for sharing it.

All the best,
Michael

31st July 2009, 04:54 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Two Landsknecht swords, ca. 1510, from South German chronicles, the painting depicting a very rare trefoliate pommel in the Italian manner at the extreme right. Michael Attached Images

23rd August 2009, 11:03 PM	#2
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	Great subjects simply don't die. If I recall right, the sword in post #96 has been under of much debate in another forum and found to be an aged contemporary repro, even the maker has been identified. I was sorting my photos and found this one, from the Invalides in Paris: Attached Images

25th August 2009, 03:50 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A Fine Swiss or South German Hand-And-a-Half Saber, ca. 1530 ... in the Wallace Collection, London. Best, Michael Attached Images

28th August 2009, 02:57 PM	#4
Samik Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Slovakia Posts: 48	some messers Not necessary Landsknecht nor Katzbalgers , but Johann von Schwarzenberg's Die Bambergische Peinliche Halsgerichtsordnung (Constitutio Criminalis Bambergensis) dated 1507 shows some nice messers: Pic. 1 :Note the curved crossguard , "knifelike" hilt as well as curved blade/scabbard Pic. 2 : shows the straight bladed variety of the messer ; note again the "knife hilt" ; the short crossguard is more typical of the earlier 15th century messers. Pic. 3 : Throwing some (presumably, judging from the apparel) "landsknecht" type for good measure. The man on the right from the devil figure carries what appears to be an "early katzbalger". As has already been mentioned in this thread the early 16th century "landsknecht swords" seem to have only a slightly curved crossguard. Of interest is also the longer "hand n a half" grip. Cheers , Samuel

2nd September 2009, 03:26 PM	#6
Samik Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Slovakia Posts: 48	early katzbalger Dont mention it Michael It seems however that the more complex hilted katzbalgers existed even earlier than I (we? ) thought. A fabulous painting done by Vittore CARPACCIO called " Portrait of a Knight " dated 1510 , shows a young man clad in complete harness (- the helmet) and armed with what appears to be a fully developed katzbalger. Note the "figure-8 or S-shaped guard" as well as the distinctive pommel more typical for the mid/later part of 16th century. Judging from the picture one could speculate that the weapon was also favoured among the men-at-arms/cream of the fighting nobility , not just the Knecht mercenaries. Take a look: Link to the source gallery : http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/htm.../03knight.html Best, Samuel

28th August 2009, 03:23 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you so much, Samuel, For the great historical illustrations and your comments! Best, Michael

2nd September 2009, 04:31 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you so much indeed, Samuel, That painting truly is a highly important source of illustration and I fully agree with your thesis that Katzbalgers were not only Knecht (mercenaries') weapons. If I am interpreting it right the pommel on Carpaccio's 1510 painting is gilt; we know of surviving Katzbalgers with gilt hilts and pommels, e.g. in the Vienna Leibrüstkammer. Sure, we can imagine that some of the more successful mercenaries could afford to have the hilts of their swords gilt - or they just took one from a person they had killed. But the source you have come up with here is sensational in that it proves your surmise that the use of these swords was not limited to the lower people! Thanks again for sharing it. All the best, Michael