Symbolism of Bali Cecekahan handle?

Marcokeris · 29th July 2009, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Care to share what you know here Marco? We don't all have Jensen's KrisDisk.

......The both hilts (Bébondollan and Cecekahan) might be a stylization of the Balu Mekabun (the veiled
widow) a representation of the death-goddess Durga. The incisions in Cecekahan hilt is said to represent the
folds in her sarong. Cedric Le Dauphin: The Hilts of Krisses, Chaos, Paris 2002, p 165. See chapter 5 p 2
and Fig 34 and chapter 6 Fig 74, 75 and Fig 82.

IMO the notches are not an arcaic meaning. They are only good for a better hold with hand (difficult to loose the handle)

David · 29th July 2009, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

IMO the notches are not an arcaic meaning. They are only good for a better hold with hand (difficult to loose the handle)

I am not convinced of this Marco. When i hold my 2 examples in the tradition grip (thumb and forefinger on the blade) my hand does not come in contact with these notches so i cannot see how they can aid in giving a better grip on the blade. Also, ever example i have seen has 5 notches, so it leads me to believe that there must be some significance to the number.

Jussi M. · 29th July 2009, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I am not convinced of this Marco. When i hold my 2 examples in the tradition grip (thumb and forefinger on the blade) my hand does not come in contact with these notches so i cannot see how they can aid in giving a better grip on the blade. Also, ever example i have seen has 5 notches, so it leads me to believe that there must be some significance to the number.

I was in the impression that Balinese kerises are hold differently from Javanese as the hilts are way much bigger? - Either I am wrong; your Balinese hilts are of the smallish side of how they come and/or you have Alexander Karelin´s hands David!

Also, I too have a hard time accepting that there is not any symbolism to the design having in mind that almost everything if not all having to do with the keris is/was symbolically loaded.

Thanks,

J

Rick · 29th July 2009, 08:38 PM

I can see your point Jussi .

Still .......

Marcokeris · 29th July 2009, 08:46 PM

....Also, ever example i have seen has 5 notches, so it leads me to believe that there must be some significance to the number.

[/QUOTE]
This is a 9+9+3 example....but how many othes with different numbers there are?

Gustav · 29th July 2009, 10:00 PM

You can find another very interesting "Cekah Redut" (more then eleven notches) in Zonneveld's "Traditional weapons ..." on page 67. It is also polychrome - blue (black?), red and gold(?). This polychrome design looks very fine, somewehere "japanese"

These carvings on one side (five (?) lines). I have seen them only on cecekahan, never bondolan. May be, it is a symbol, bound to a certain group of people, the selected warriors with "Pemating"?

I allways thought, they are another primitive form of a face, but they are on the other side of hilt, and only on cecekahan (?).

David · 29th July 2009, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

....Also, ever example i have seen has 5 notches, so it leads me to believe that there must be some significance to the number.

This is a 9+9+3 example....but how many othes with different numbers there are?

[/QUOTE]
Marco, just to clarify, i am inquiring about the 5 straight notches that are cut into the back of the "head" of the hilt, not the notches cut down the sides of the hilt. This last example you have posted also has these same 5 notches.

Jussi, i have average size hands and i have little problem extending my forefinger onto the blade much the way it is shown in the photo posted by Rick. The hilts are normal Bali size and i have no idea who Alexander Karelin is. Though i will point out that i have a number of smaller than average bondalan style hilts which make this grip very easy.

Jussi M. · 29th July 2009, 10:59 PM

David,

I might be wrong but I´ve understood that the Balinese kerises are more or less gripped like you would a normal big handled kitchen knife. That said I gather that every guy in the old days had his own favorite way of grasping the weapon if used as such. - Not doing so would be pretty unlikely IMO but this is an area I have no expertise in so dont know. The contrary just sounds illogical.

Alexander Karelin is the greatest still living wrestler ever. Famous not only because he was on a league of his own in his heyday but also because of his huge build and intellectual virtuosity in such areas as writing and poetry to name a few. - A true renaissance man if you will.

Anyways I think we still havent found any answers to the original question Erik asked, anybody?

Rick · 29th July 2009, 11:47 PM

Aside from the 'notches' David mentioned I see some lightly scribed curved lines on the same area of these 'notches' .

Is this a representation of the eye of Shiva that is often seen on Bali/Lombok wrongkos ?

A. G. Maisey · 30th July 2009, 12:48 AM

The first two hilts I have shown are not conventional cekah solas:- the first one has 27 notches, I do not have the patience to count how many the second one has. The first with 27 notches also has five notches at its top back, and a double wideng on each face.

The other five hilts I have shown could be called conventional cekah solas.

Three have no notches at the top back.

One has six notches, and these notches are not of a uniform nature.

One I do not own and I do not know how many notches it has.

Statistically this is an insignificant sample, however it is sufficient a sample to demonstrate that the presence and number of notches is not consistent in this type of hilt.

I do not know the reason for the presence of these notches when they do exist, and I doubt that anybody now does know. All we can do is to guess, and any guesses we make will be virtually impossible to support with any kind of convincing argument.

I do not like making this sort of guess, as I believe that guesses, theories, hypotheses and ideas that cannot be supported with either evidence or a logical argument are simply time wasters and non-productive.

However, with the disclaimer that what I will now say in respect of these features found in some Balinese hilts is only the spouting of empty words and an indulgence in the spirit of fun, I here offer a suggestion:-

the Balinese keris is worn at the back, with the top of the keris sitting high above the shoulder, this places the hilt of the keris in a very obvious and easily seen position; I suggest that these notches could be an indication of either rank or cast.

Similarly, the wideng ( that small scroll-like engraving adjacent to the notches) could perhaps also be indicative of rank. A wideng on a Javanese wrongko was the prerogative of the sons and grandsons of the ruler, a similar purpose could have existed in Bali.

Regarding the grip used with the Balinese keris.

I have never seen an old photo of a Balinese man gripping a keris where that keris was gripped in the fencer's grip as in Jawa.

Every example of keris grip that I have seen has been of the entire hilt gripped firmly, often with the first joint of the index finger anchored against the top of the gonjo, as in the photo posted by Rick. My own experimentation with gripping Balinese keris has demonstrated to my satisfaction that in general the Javanese fencer grip is not suitable for use with a Balinese keris.

There is something that should be noted about the basic difference between Balinese and Javanese attitudes. Historically the Javanese tended towards gentility and refinement, even if this was often only feigned. On the other hand, the Balinese from very early times up to very recent times (C1910) were regarded as rough, unruly, dangerous and murderous, often given to quick fits of temper. Back in the 19th century Kuta was a den of criminals and cut throats ( maybe things haven't changed all that much).

Translating this cultural variation into the gripping of a keris, it is easy to see the delicate Javanese grip as a reflection of societal attitude, and the firm grip employed with the Balinese keris as a reflection of that society's attitudes.

There can be no doubt that the keris is an object that is very subject to symbolic interpretation. Some of this symbolism can be supported, some is simply fantasy. When we begin to attempt to provide a symbolic interpretation, or a reason, for any feature noted in the keris, we first need to place that interpretation within a time frame. This is particularly true of the Javanese keris, where symbolic --- and philosophical --- interpretation has changed over time, and in fact is still developing.

David · 31st July 2009, 04:38 PM

While searching for images of Balinese actually holding drawn keris i came across this hilt which seems a different form from the cecekahan hilt but incorporates the same "accordian" notches.
I was not at all successful finding images of the grip on unsheathed Bali keris, other than dancers stabbing themselves in the Barong dance. Alan if you have some i would love to see them. I do concede that the "fencers" grip is not very practical, though i do have 3 small bondalan hilts where it is very comfortable to use. Most Bali hilts are too large though. My original point however was to point out that these 5 (or 6) straight notches at the back of the "head" have nothing to do with getting a better grip on the hilt regardless of how you hold it.
I must disagree that looking for theories is a useless exercise. Claiming any unproven theory as fact would indeed be misleading, but throwing around theories can help to stimulate the thought process and can sometimes lead us to unexpected realizations. If i don't know the answer to something i cannot see any benefit to not discussing the possibilities of it. IMO we are here to discuss keris, not necessarily to have or even find all the answers about them. Sometimes that journey can be more insightful than the destination itself. I see no waste of time in such discussions as long as the argument do not become circular in nature.

29th July 2009, 08:38 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Grip I can see your point Jussi . Still ....... Attached Images

29th July 2009, 08:46 PM	#5
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	....Also, ever example i have seen has 5 notches, so it leads me to believe that there must be some significance to the number. [/QUOTE] This is a 9+9+3 example....but how many othes with different numbers there are? Attached Images

29th July 2009, 10:00 PM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	You can find another very interesting "Cekah Redut" (more then eleven notches) in Zonneveld's "Traditional weapons ..." on page 67. It is also polychrome - blue (black?), red and gold(?). This polychrome design looks very fine, somewehere "japanese" These carvings on one side (five (?) lines). I have seen them only on cecekahan, never bondolan. May be, it is a symbol, bound to a certain group of people, the selected warriors with "Pemating"? I allways thought, they are another primitive form of a face, but they are on the other side of hilt, and only on cecekahan (?). Last edited by Gustav; 29th July 2009 at 11:34 PM.

31st July 2009, 04:38 PM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	While searching for images of Balinese actually holding drawn keris i came across this hilt which seems a different form from the cecekahan hilt but incorporates the same "accordian" notches. I was not at all successful finding images of the grip on unsheathed Bali keris, other than dancers stabbing themselves in the Barong dance. Alan if you have some i would love to see them. I do concede that the "fencers" grip is not very practical, though i do have 3 small bondalan hilts where it is very comfortable to use. Most Bali hilts are too large though. My original point however was to point out that these 5 (or 6) straight notches at the back of the "head" have nothing to do with getting a better grip on the hilt regardless of how you hold it. I must disagree that looking for theories is a useless exercise. Claiming any unproven theory as fact would indeed be misleading, but throwing around theories can help to stimulate the thought process and can sometimes lead us to unexpected realizations. If i don't know the answer to something i cannot see any benefit to not discussing the possibilities of it. IMO we are here to discuss keris, not necessarily to have or even find all the answers about them. Sometimes that journey can be more insightful than the destination itself. I see no waste of time in such discussions as long as the argument do not become circular in nature. Attached Images

29th July 2009, 10:59 PM	#8
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	David, I might be wrong but I´ve understood that the Balinese kerises are more or less gripped like you would a normal big handled kitchen knife. That said I gather that every guy in the old days had his own favorite way of grasping the weapon if used as such. - Not doing so would be pretty unlikely IMO but this is an area I have no expertise in so dont know. The contrary just sounds illogical. Alexander Karelin is the greatest still living wrestler ever. Famous not only because he was on a league of his own in his heyday but also because of his huge build and intellectual virtuosity in such areas as writing and poetry to name a few. - A true renaissance man if you will. Anyways I think we still havent found any answers to the original question Erik asked, anybody?

29th July 2009, 11:47 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Aside from the 'notches' David mentioned I see some lightly scribed curved lines on the same area of these 'notches' . Is this a representation of the eye of Shiva that is often seen on Bali/Lombok wrongkos ?

30th July 2009, 12:48 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	The first two hilts I have shown are not conventional cekah solas:- the first one has 27 notches, I do not have the patience to count how many the second one has. The first with 27 notches also has five notches at its top back, and a double wideng on each face. The other five hilts I have shown could be called conventional cekah solas. Three have no notches at the top back. One has six notches, and these notches are not of a uniform nature. One I do not own and I do not know how many notches it has. Statistically this is an insignificant sample, however it is sufficient a sample to demonstrate that the presence and number of notches is not consistent in this type of hilt. I do not know the reason for the presence of these notches when they do exist, and I doubt that anybody now does know. All we can do is to guess, and any guesses we make will be virtually impossible to support with any kind of convincing argument. I do not like making this sort of guess, as I believe that guesses, theories, hypotheses and ideas that cannot be supported with either evidence or a logical argument are simply time wasters and non-productive. However, with the disclaimer that what I will now say in respect of these features found in some Balinese hilts is only the spouting of empty words and an indulgence in the spirit of fun, I here offer a suggestion:- the Balinese keris is worn at the back, with the top of the keris sitting high above the shoulder, this places the hilt of the keris in a very obvious and easily seen position; I suggest that these notches could be an indication of either rank or cast. Similarly, the wideng ( that small scroll-like engraving adjacent to the notches) could perhaps also be indicative of rank. A wideng on a Javanese wrongko was the prerogative of the sons and grandsons of the ruler, a similar purpose could have existed in Bali. Regarding the grip used with the Balinese keris. I have never seen an old photo of a Balinese man gripping a keris where that keris was gripped in the fencer's grip as in Jawa. Every example of keris grip that I have seen has been of the entire hilt gripped firmly, often with the first joint of the index finger anchored against the top of the gonjo, as in the photo posted by Rick. My own experimentation with gripping Balinese keris has demonstrated to my satisfaction that in general the Javanese fencer grip is not suitable for use with a Balinese keris. There is something that should be noted about the basic difference between Balinese and Javanese attitudes. Historically the Javanese tended towards gentility and refinement, even if this was often only feigned. On the other hand, the Balinese from very early times up to very recent times (C1910) were regarded as rough, unruly, dangerous and murderous, often given to quick fits of temper. Back in the 19th century Kuta was a den of criminals and cut throats ( maybe things haven't changed all that much). Translating this cultural variation into the gripping of a keris, it is easy to see the delicate Javanese grip as a reflection of societal attitude, and the firm grip employed with the Balinese keris as a reflection of that society's attitudes. There can be no doubt that the keris is an object that is very subject to symbolic interpretation. Some of this symbolism can be supported, some is simply fantasy. When we begin to attempt to provide a symbolic interpretation, or a reason, for any feature noted in the keris, we first need to place that interpretation within a time frame. This is particularly true of the Javanese keris, where symbolic --- and philosophical --- interpretation has changed over time, and in fact is still developing.