Symbolism of Bali Cecekahan handle?

Marcokeris · 29th July 2009, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikscollectables

Exactly one of my questions too.
Will start travelling now so only join the forum again after the holidays but hope to learn more then...

Regards, Erik

In Jensen's KRISDISK you can learn more

David · 29th July 2009, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

In Jensen's KRISDISK you can learn more

Care to share what you know here Marco? We don't all have Jensen's KrisDisk.

Marcokeris · 29th July 2009, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Care to share what you know here Marco? We don't all have Jensen's KrisDisk.

......The both hilts (Bébondollan and Cecekahan) might be a stylization of the Balu Mekabun (the veiled
widow) a representation of the death-goddess Durga. The incisions in Cecekahan hilt is said to represent the
folds in her sarong. Cedric Le Dauphin: The Hilts of Krisses, Chaos, Paris 2002, p 165. See chapter 5 p 2
and Fig 34 and chapter 6 Fig 74, 75 and Fig 82.

IMO the notches are not an arcaic meaning. They are only good for a better hold with hand (difficult to loose the handle)

David · 29th July 2009, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

IMO the notches are not an arcaic meaning. They are only good for a better hold with hand (difficult to loose the handle)

I am not convinced of this Marco. When i hold my 2 examples in the tradition grip (thumb and forefinger on the blade) my hand does not come in contact with these notches so i cannot see how they can aid in giving a better grip on the blade. Also, ever example i have seen has 5 notches, so it leads me to believe that there must be some significance to the number.

Jussi M. · 29th July 2009, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I am not convinced of this Marco. When i hold my 2 examples in the tradition grip (thumb and forefinger on the blade) my hand does not come in contact with these notches so i cannot see how they can aid in giving a better grip on the blade. Also, ever example i have seen has 5 notches, so it leads me to believe that there must be some significance to the number.

I was in the impression that Balinese kerises are hold differently from Javanese as the hilts are way much bigger? - Either I am wrong; your Balinese hilts are of the smallish side of how they come and/or you have Alexander Karelin´s hands David!

Also, I too have a hard time accepting that there is not any symbolism to the design having in mind that almost everything if not all having to do with the keris is/was symbolically loaded.

Thanks,

J

Rick · 29th July 2009, 08:38 PM

I can see your point Jussi .

Still .......

Marcokeris · 29th July 2009, 08:46 PM

....Also, ever example i have seen has 5 notches, so it leads me to believe that there must be some significance to the number.

[/QUOTE]
This is a 9+9+3 example....but how many othes with different numbers there are?

Gustav · 29th July 2009, 10:00 PM

You can find another very interesting "Cekah Redut" (more then eleven notches) in Zonneveld's "Traditional weapons ..." on page 67. It is also polychrome - blue (black?), red and gold(?). This polychrome design looks very fine, somewehere "japanese"

These carvings on one side (five (?) lines). I have seen them only on cecekahan, never bondolan. May be, it is a symbol, bound to a certain group of people, the selected warriors with "Pemating"?

I allways thought, they are another primitive form of a face, but they are on the other side of hilt, and only on cecekahan (?).

David · 29th July 2009, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

....Also, ever example i have seen has 5 notches, so it leads me to believe that there must be some significance to the number.

This is a 9+9+3 example....but how many othes with different numbers there are?

[/QUOTE]
Marco, just to clarify, i am inquiring about the 5 straight notches that are cut into the back of the "head" of the hilt, not the notches cut down the sides of the hilt. This last example you have posted also has these same 5 notches.

Jussi, i have average size hands and i have little problem extending my forefinger onto the blade much the way it is shown in the photo posted by Rick. The hilts are normal Bali size and i have no idea who Alexander Karelin is. Though i will point out that i have a number of smaller than average bondalan style hilts which make this grip very easy.

Jussi M. · 29th July 2009, 10:59 PM

David,

I might be wrong but I´ve understood that the Balinese kerises are more or less gripped like you would a normal big handled kitchen knife. That said I gather that every guy in the old days had his own favorite way of grasping the weapon if used as such. - Not doing so would be pretty unlikely IMO but this is an area I have no expertise in so dont know. The contrary just sounds illogical.

Alexander Karelin is the greatest still living wrestler ever. Famous not only because he was on a league of his own in his heyday but also because of his huge build and intellectual virtuosity in such areas as writing and poetry to name a few. - A true renaissance man if you will.

Anyways I think we still havent found any answers to the original question Erik asked, anybody?

29th July 2009, 08:38 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Grip I can see your point Jussi . Still ....... Attached Images

29th July 2009, 08:46 PM	#7
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	....Also, ever example i have seen has 5 notches, so it leads me to believe that there must be some significance to the number. [/QUOTE] This is a 9+9+3 example....but how many othes with different numbers there are? Attached Images

29th July 2009, 10:00 PM	#8
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	You can find another very interesting "Cekah Redut" (more then eleven notches) in Zonneveld's "Traditional weapons ..." on page 67. It is also polychrome - blue (black?), red and gold(?). This polychrome design looks very fine, somewehere "japanese" These carvings on one side (five (?) lines). I have seen them only on cecekahan, never bondolan. May be, it is a symbol, bound to a certain group of people, the selected warriors with "Pemating"? I allways thought, they are another primitive form of a face, but they are on the other side of hilt, and only on cecekahan (?). Last edited by Gustav; 29th July 2009 at 11:34 PM.

29th July 2009, 10:59 PM	#10
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	David, I might be wrong but I´ve understood that the Balinese kerises are more or less gripped like you would a normal big handled kitchen knife. That said I gather that every guy in the old days had his own favorite way of grasping the weapon if used as such. - Not doing so would be pretty unlikely IMO but this is an area I have no expertise in so dont know. The contrary just sounds illogical. Alexander Karelin is the greatest still living wrestler ever. Famous not only because he was on a league of his own in his heyday but also because of his huge build and intellectual virtuosity in such areas as writing and poetry to name a few. - A true renaissance man if you will. Anyways I think we still havent found any answers to the original question Erik asked, anybody?