volga bulgarian/bashkir weapons?

Jim McDougall · 27th July 2009, 08:44 PM

Samuel and Teodor, thanks for coming in on this, I was looking forward to the detail and fascinating perspective always brought in on the history of these times and regions.
It seems like the accounts of the simple crossguard sword being likened to the cross abound, especially as literature on the history of Christianity sought to adopt many types of symbolism, I think the chi rho is another example. Even in the Sudan, where I sought to discover the term which the native people used to describe the sword we know as the kaskara, I found instances where members of some groups insisted it was simply called 'cross'.

Over the years I have only had little contact with Russ Mitchell, but he seems extremely knowledgable on the Magyars and the history of these regions. Still I also rather doubt the viability of the comment on the use of the sword with simple crossguard being required for its association to the cross, and I feel reasonably certain he is recounting something in earlier writings.

All best regards,
Jim

Samik · 28th July 2009, 08:56 PM

Hello gentlemen,

I found the post in question :
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...gars#post99153

Particularly

Quote:

To that same degree, there is circumstantial evidence from a Byzantine missionary that the Bulgars may have switched from using a curved sword to a cruciform one as part of the conversion process to Christianity.

Teodor any idea who was the missionary or what he might be talking about?

*SPECULATION TIME!*

Personally , I am only vaguely familiar with the pre 1000 A.D. era , but as far as the byzantine sabre ( the so called "paramerion" ) is concerned (and depicted in art) there seems to be some degree of "christianization". To put it differently, the adoption of a more western/byzantine crossguard on a sabre/backsword/pallash/whatever-non-straight-double-edged blade seems to be somewhat visible (well, at least in art).

Note the crossguards (and perhaps even the lack of yelmen) which might (or not) have been a feature of adoption and "christianization" of a foreign weapon.

St-Mercurius circa 1295, Macedonia.
Look at the crossguard which resembles that of the straight period-byzantine swords.

Frescoe from Pec (Serbia, at the time vassal of the Byzantines) painted circa 1316. This fabulous picture sports both a gently curved (minus a yelmen) sabre and a straight sword ; both having a very similar (albeit not identical) gilded hilts (interesting to note is the somewhat peculiar "gilded" first-quarter of the sabre's false-edge).

Perhaps it was similar with the Danube Bulgars/Bulgarians

Cheers,
Samuel

TVV · 28th July 2009, 09:49 PM

Personally, I find it highly unlikely that the Danube Bulgarians switched their edged weapons due to any religious reasons. If there was a change in Bulgarian weapons, it was likely due to the constant trading and warfare with the Empire, which lead to an exchange of tactics and weapons. After a few centuries in the Balkans, apart from any local production, imported blades and hilts were much more likely to come from the Eastern Roman Empire and Central/Western Europe rather than from the Central Asian production centers.

The frescoes are much later, from the Second Bulgarian Tsardom at a time, when Bulgarians have been Christians for centuries (same for the Serbs). When it comes to the First Bulgarian Tsardom however, none of the archaeological finds seem to support the theory that the hilts the Bulgarians were using changed after the conversion to Christianity. Of course, the sample of finds is too small to make any generic conclusions anyway.

The topic was for the Volga Bulgarians and their weapons, however, which are even more obscure. Trying to come up with ideas on what Bulgarians from Kazan and Bolghar could have used based on what has been found in Pliska and Preslav may be tricky - there certainly were some similarities as certain shapes were left from the times when all Bulgarians lived in a common country, but the distance and the differences in cultural and military influences must have also played a part.

Best regards,
Teodor

27th July 2009, 08:44 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,730	Samuel and Teodor, thanks for coming in on this, I was looking forward to the detail and fascinating perspective always brought in on the history of these times and regions. It seems like the accounts of the simple crossguard sword being likened to the cross abound, especially as literature on the history of Christianity sought to adopt many types of symbolism, I think the chi rho is another example. Even in the Sudan, where I sought to discover the term which the native people used to describe the sword we know as the kaskara, I found instances where members of some groups insisted it was simply called 'cross'. Over the years I have only had little contact with Russ Mitchell, but he seems extremely knowledgable on the Magyars and the history of these regions. Still I also rather doubt the viability of the comment on the use of the sword with simple crossguard being required for its association to the cross, and I feel reasonably certain he is recounting something in earlier writings. All best regards, Jim

28th July 2009, 09:49 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,738	Personally, I find it highly unlikely that the Danube Bulgarians switched their edged weapons due to any religious reasons. If there was a change in Bulgarian weapons, it was likely due to the constant trading and warfare with the Empire, which lead to an exchange of tactics and weapons. After a few centuries in the Balkans, apart from any local production, imported blades and hilts were much more likely to come from the Eastern Roman Empire and Central/Western Europe rather than from the Central Asian production centers. The frescoes are much later, from the Second Bulgarian Tsardom at a time, when Bulgarians have been Christians for centuries (same for the Serbs). When it comes to the First Bulgarian Tsardom however, none of the archaeological finds seem to support the theory that the hilts the Bulgarians were using changed after the conversion to Christianity. Of course, the sample of finds is too small to make any generic conclusions anyway. The topic was for the Volga Bulgarians and their weapons, however, which are even more obscure. Trying to come up with ideas on what Bulgarians from Kazan and Bolghar could have used based on what has been found in Pliska and Preslav may be tricky - there certainly were some similarities as certain shapes were left from the times when all Bulgarians lived in a common country, but the distance and the differences in cultural and military influences must have also played a part. Best regards, Teodor