Unusual Kirach For Discussion

Conogre · 8th May 2005, 07:40 AM

Perhaps a dumb question, but Rick, is there any chance that the hilt on your wonderful kirach was at one time removed and then accidently put back on backwards?
The basket hilt seems entirely innapropriate compared th the sharpened side of the blade and almost as if it would be near impossible to use effectively.
Maybe it's just me, but the anomaly jumped right out at me with the first glance.
Mike

tom hyle · 8th May 2005, 02:59 PM

The primary cutting edge is the inside of the curve.
Another beauty.
Note the krislikeness/pseudo-kris-pedanglikeness

tom hyle · 8th May 2005, 04:13 PM

Sometmes swords, especially shortswords, are used "edge up" though. This is seen In both Japanese and N American traditional fighting, for instance; it is a style often recommended for its thrusting (with the blade cut up thru the body after penetration, ideally to the abdominal cavity, with the blade being dragged up to penetrate the diaphragm, ideally ideally, the tip is then angled up into the heart and/or lungs (elephants, you are not alone). This was popularly taught in N America in C 19, and traditionally (maybe still, but I don't know) the penalties were heavier for edge-up criminal stabbings in Japan. I am also intrigued by knucklebowed swords in European art, some of it old, depicted (usually in the sheath, dang it!) with forward-curved blades, when I don't see sabre-hilted yatagans (in Europe; just saw a couple from India; call 'em sossun patta if you want)?....this is seen more in art for children; are children's artists more distant from real violence/weapons? Could it be a deliberate absurdity meant to somehow Bowlderize the prince's sword at the grand ball (etc.), and that like the fox-sized horse literary situation Stephen Gould told us of, came to be the standard?.............dunno; one of those odd strands hanging from the tattered tapestry of world cutlery......

Rick · 8th May 2005, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conogre

Perhaps a dumb question, but Rick, is there any chance that the hilt on your wonderful kirach was at one time removed and then accidently put back on backwards?
The basket hilt seems entirely innapropriate compared th the sharpened side of the blade and almost as if it would be near impossible to use effectively.
Maybe it's just me, but the anomaly jumped right out at me with the first glance.
Mike

Hi Mike , this is the original configuration of hilt to blade . As Tom stated the primary cutting edge is the concave one even though the back (convex) edge is almost as long and just as sharp . One look at the base of the blade will tell you that this is the original turn of the 18c. mounting material (there is a lot of it and it looks almost ancient ) . This is a chopping sword capable of a devastating back slash , and of penetrating maille with a stab .

I think it is the most ferocious sword I have ever handled , made for the melee .

tom hyle · 8th May 2005, 04:39 PM

The back edge (usually shorter on kirach; this one is unusual at least to my experience, and it sounds like to that of others as well) looks sharper perhaps because its bevel is wider; I'm pretty sure this is due to the blade having somewhat of an overall wedge-section, rather than being flat (?) thus for the same angle (is it?) to come to an edge takes a wider descent thru the thicker metal at the spine side of the wedge?

Rick · 8th May 2005, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

The back edge (usually shorter on kirach; this one is unusual at least to my experience, and it sounds like to that of others as well) looks sharper perhaps because its bevel is wider; I'm pretty sure this is due to the blade having somewhat of an overall wedge-section, rather than being flat (?) thus for the same angle (is it?) to come to an edge takes a wider descent thru the thicker metal at the spine side of the wedge?

Flat but thick .

It is slightly wedge section at the base but at mid point and judging by eye (misplaced my caliper

) it appears to be flat .

Jim McDougall · 9th May 2005, 05:17 AM

Just noticed on a shortword size 'sosun pattah' ? with khanjhar form parrot head steel hilt that I have, the blade tip also has the armour piercing reinforcement. This weapon is undoubtedly Mughal and 19th c. but more interesting now that I have seen this kirach.

Once again buried in a sea of archival debris, I at last found some references to that confounded 'sunburst' or whatever it is on the blade!!

In "Wallace Collection Catalogs:European Arms & Armour" Sir James Mann, 1962, p.390, this marking appears on a Swiss dagger c.1560 in two of them parallel. Somehow, it makes no reference to the meaning, despite the fact that the time was taken to draw them! grrr!
I found these toothed circles again in "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1975, #545) on the blade of a sabre d. 1600-1610. These appear in multiple combinations of one on either side of an almond shape with the same toothed design. These appear as motif in the fullers, with about 20 of them in all.

While on an Indian weapon, we may expect such a symbol to have either religious or talismanic/auspicious meanings. However if these have been duplicated from European blades, as often was the case, such symbols may be derived from cabbalistic/alchemical devices. A symbol very similar to this only with a concentric dot center is used in context to describe fire. There are numerous ideograms with dots etc. that denote iron, as well as 'wind furnace' (=forge).

It is unfortunate that whatever was between the 'sunbursts' is obliterated as it might help further establishing possible meaning. Another thing that seems significant in markings that sometimes appear on these blades is the key and unusual places they appear. For example, a grouping of specific number of dots placed at the choil or peak of false edge of a blade.
Many of these mysterious marks have alchemical or cabbalistic meaning that is of course long lost to us, but may have been well understood at the time these blades were made.

Best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 9th May 2005, 06:10 AM

Ahah! Just discovered something in S. Haider "Arms & Armour of Muslim India" p.99. A heavy fabric coat studded with large nails has in the middle of the back a large silver boss with silver metal lines projecting from it, much like our familiar sunburst. It is stated this is a 'hazagund' (zirah hazar maikhi), a type of armour that is noted by Robinson ("Oriental Armour" p.103) as termed by the Rajputs 'coat of a thousand nails'.
Haider notes further that Lahore was the greatest center for armour making for the Mughals and made the finest examples.
Possibly the symbolism might be found here?
Jim

Rick · 9th May 2005, 02:48 PM

Here's the best close up I can get for now .

9th May 2005, 02:48 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	About The Obliterated Marks Here's the best close up I can get for now . Attached Images

8th May 2005, 07:40 AM	#1
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Perhaps a dumb question, but Rick, is there any chance that the hilt on your wonderful kirach was at one time removed and then accidently put back on backwards? The basket hilt seems entirely innapropriate compared th the sharpened side of the blade and almost as if it would be near impossible to use effectively. Maybe it's just me, but the anomaly jumped right out at me with the first glance. Mike

8th May 2005, 02:59 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The primary cutting edge is the inside of the curve. Another beauty. Note the krislikeness/pseudo-kris-pedanglikeness

8th May 2005, 04:13 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Sometmes swords, especially shortswords, are used "edge up" though. This is seen In both Japanese and N American traditional fighting, for instance; it is a style often recommended for its thrusting (with the blade cut up thru the body after penetration, ideally to the abdominal cavity, with the blade being dragged up to penetrate the diaphragm, ideally ideally, the tip is then angled up into the heart and/or lungs (elephants, you are not alone). This was popularly taught in N America in C 19, and traditionally (maybe still, but I don't know) the penalties were heavier for edge-up criminal stabbings in Japan. I am also intrigued by knucklebowed swords in European art, some of it old, depicted (usually in the sheath, dang it!) with forward-curved blades, when I don't see sabre-hilted yatagans (in Europe; just saw a couple from India; call 'em sossun patta if you want)?....this is seen more in art for children; are children's artists more distant from real violence/weapons? Could it be a deliberate absurdity meant to somehow Bowlderize the prince's sword at the grand ball (etc.), and that like the fox-sized horse literary situation Stephen Gould told us of, came to be the standard?.............dunno; one of those odd strands hanging from the tattered tapestry of world cutlery......

8th May 2005, 04:39 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The back edge (usually shorter on kirach; this one is unusual at least to my experience, and it sounds like to that of others as well) looks sharper perhaps because its bevel is wider; I'm pretty sure this is due to the blade having somewhat of an overall wedge-section, rather than being flat (?) thus for the same angle (is it?) to come to an edge takes a wider descent thru the thicker metal at the spine side of the wedge?

9th May 2005, 05:17 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Just noticed on a shortword size 'sosun pattah' ? with khanjhar form parrot head steel hilt that I have, the blade tip also has the armour piercing reinforcement. This weapon is undoubtedly Mughal and 19th c. but more interesting now that I have seen this kirach. Once again buried in a sea of archival debris, I at last found some references to that confounded 'sunburst' or whatever it is on the blade!! In "Wallace Collection Catalogs:European Arms & Armour" Sir James Mann, 1962, p.390, this marking appears on a Swiss dagger c.1560 in two of them parallel. Somehow, it makes no reference to the meaning, despite the fact that the time was taken to draw them! grrr! I found these toothed circles again in "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1975, #545) on the blade of a sabre d. 1600-1610. These appear in multiple combinations of one on either side of an almond shape with the same toothed design. These appear as motif in the fullers, with about 20 of them in all. While on an Indian weapon, we may expect such a symbol to have either religious or talismanic/auspicious meanings. However if these have been duplicated from European blades, as often was the case, such symbols may be derived from cabbalistic/alchemical devices. A symbol very similar to this only with a concentric dot center is used in context to describe fire. There are numerous ideograms with dots etc. that denote iron, as well as 'wind furnace' (=forge). It is unfortunate that whatever was between the 'sunbursts' is obliterated as it might help further establishing possible meaning. Another thing that seems significant in markings that sometimes appear on these blades is the key and unusual places they appear. For example, a grouping of specific number of dots placed at the choil or peak of false edge of a blade. Many of these mysterious marks have alchemical or cabbalistic meaning that is of course long lost to us, but may have been well understood at the time these blades were made. Best regards, Jim

9th May 2005, 06:10 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Ahah! Just discovered something in S. Haider "Arms & Armour of Muslim India" p.99. A heavy fabric coat studded with large nails has in the middle of the back a large silver boss with silver metal lines projecting from it, much like our familiar sunburst. It is stated this is a 'hazagund' (zirah hazar maikhi), a type of armour that is noted by Robinson ("Oriental Armour" p.103) as termed by the Rajputs 'coat of a thousand nails'. Haider notes further that Lahore was the greatest center for armour making for the Mughals and made the finest examples. Possibly the symbolism might be found here? Jim