A beautiful Burmese dha dated 1798

Mark · 14th December 2004, 05:01 PM

The face is a demon of some sort -- the boar-like tusks are usually supposed to indicate a demon in Asian art. Demons are not necessarity "demonic" as we understand it. Perhaps a better work would be "ogre." They turn up in a very of the Burmese myths and legends.

The figures, as you can see from this one close-up, are very detailed and each is different. There are six humans, male and female, two demons/orgres, one male one female, and two stags. There are no clear "attributes," such as you might see in depections of Hindu gods and heroes to tell you if they are supposed to someone particular. But I suspect that they represent either specific characters in a story, or possibly spirits (called nat in Burmese), of which there are over a hundred. The investigation continues ...

BluErf · 15th December 2004, 03:23 PM

Thanks Mark. I'm really enjoying this dha. If you have time, please do post more pictures/details of this dha... its simply amazing!

fernando · 26th December 2004, 07:42 PM

Portuguese settlers in Birmania, being or not mercenaries, are more abundantly quoted in earlier chronicles. They got there around 1512 and soon they engaged in either side of the conflicts between Sion and Pegu, having in their skills the use of firearms. Later by the end of that century, two portuguese adventurers joined the armies of Mim Razagi, in conquering the kingdom of Pegu. One of them, Salvador de Sousa, was named King of Pegu, and the other,Filipe Nicote, was given Syriam, a river island harbour in the Erawady river delta, building a fort and a town that still exists. He was impaled in 1608.
Any relation between this and the mercenary quoted by Mark?

Mark · 27th December 2004, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Portuguese settlers in Birmania, being or not mercenaries, are more abundantly quoted in earlier chronicles. They got there around 1512 and soon they engaged in either side of the conflicts between Sion and Pegu, having in their skills the use of firearms. Later by the end of that century, two portuguese adventurers joined the armies of Mim Razagi, in conquering the kingdom of Pegu. One of them, Salvador de Sousa, was named King of Pegu, and the other,Filipe Nicote, was given Syriam, a river island harbour in the Erawady river delta, building a fort and a town that still exists. He was impaled in 1608.
Any relation between this and the mercenary quoted by Mark?

Yes, I believe Filipe Nicote is the one I am remembering.

Gavin Nugent · 17th February 2017, 12:46 AM

A shame that other than being briefly published, that this sword and swords of the type did not develop further in discussion.
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel....swordlist.htm

The subject of the "Story Dah", as far as I am aware, has not been ventured in to in detail. I note Mark had added a little more insight and detailed images here;
http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0074.htm
It is my hope that Mark might chime in and offer some further first hand insight to this sword.

Personally, I think this sword dates post 1858, supported by the many and various Burmese silver collections held in Museums around the world.
It was the British Raj period that bolstered this fine age old craft, the period being 1875-1945, although, I understand that the 1860's saw the initial rise in export silver.

A point that I do not think Mark photographed, is what I think is a face from which the upper suspension loop protrudes from the mouth of.
If I am correct in my suspicions, based on others of the type known to me, this is the same face seen on the pommel, a face that I suspect is Hanuman... even the goodies had teeth and tusks...

I do not mean to be disparaging in my visual assessment of this sword, and for learning and discussion purposes, and that it is only my personal belief based on the examples I know, that the hilt on the example pictured is a later replacement... exactly how later I do not know, but I suspect post WWII. The level of carving is in my honest opinion, not consistent with known ivory carving found on these sword types or comparable carved ivories from Burma during this period. the method and quality of the craft which binds the antler is also questionable, I get an almost Laos or Thai flavour from it.

In the description Mark provided in his further research of the sword, he notes the panel on which 1798 is found on an added panel whilst the blade dates to 1919, a quandary indeed. On one example known to me, it has the English Royal coat of arms in repousse for this panel. Possibly this sword had it too, removed to fit this addition?

Of the blade type, it is a quality blade and considered by myself and others as a mid 19th century type through to the 1920/30's. I find from this point on wards that the blades decrease in size and quality as does the dress, finally to a point from the 1950's on wards where these swords became just a shadow of their predecessors with poor quality blades of roughly the same form and very lazy and poor quality repousse in pot metal. One such 1950's pair of swords known to me were purchased during an officers stay in the Kachin regions of Burma...whether this became a point of sale area or a manufacture area of the later types, I am unsure.

There are many online reference points for old Burmese silver, various combinations of word searches will present a wealth of information.

All for now.

Gavin

Jim McDougall · 17th February 2017, 01:12 AM

Thank you for bringing this thread back Gav! Its been a few years

and good to see this analytic look at dhas and seeing the core of knowledge with the guys in the discussion. Given the brilliant work by Ian on the 'what is this sword ?' thread.....this is perfectly timed.
I look forward to learning more on these as my knowledge on them is limited, but they are a fascinating form .

Ian · 17th February 2017, 02:54 AM

Gavin:

Thanks for bringing this one back up. Interesting that you mention a Lao or Thai flavor to some of the decoration. I was thinking the same thing about the segmented silver panels that run the length of the scabbard. I have thought this was a particularly Lao trait, with multiple panels used to depict various elements in repoussed silver. Of course, the finding of Lao work on Burmese swords is perhaps not surprising, and if I recall correctly the Burmese enslaved Lao craftsmen during one of their conquering expeditions, as did the Thai.

I think you are correct that the "story dhas" did increase during the period of British rule and involvement in Burma. They are certainly quite common in Western markets and most do seem to date from the mid-19th C. on. Whether they existed prior to the British period I don't know.

I have a presentation dha somewhat similar to Mark's but with an ivory and silver hilt. This one bears an inscription dated 1915. It is tucked away in storage, but I will try to find it and post pictures here.

Ian.

17th February 2017, 12:46 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	A shame that other than being briefly published, that this sword and swords of the type did not develop further in discussion. http://www.arscives.com/historysteel....swordlist.htm The subject of the "Story Dah", as far as I am aware, has not been ventured in to in detail. I note Mark had added a little more insight and detailed images here; http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0074.htm It is my hope that Mark might chime in and offer some further first hand insight to this sword. Personally, I think this sword dates post 1858, supported by the many and various Burmese silver collections held in Museums around the world. It was the British Raj period that bolstered this fine age old craft, the period being 1875-1945, although, I understand that the 1860's saw the initial rise in export silver. A point that I do not think Mark photographed, is what I think is a face from which the upper suspension loop protrudes from the mouth of. If I am correct in my suspicions, based on others of the type known to me, this is the same face seen on the pommel, a face that I suspect is Hanuman... even the goodies had teeth and tusks... I do not mean to be disparaging in my visual assessment of this sword, and for learning and discussion purposes, and that it is only my personal belief based on the examples I know, that the hilt on the example pictured is a later replacement... exactly how later I do not know, but I suspect post WWII. The level of carving is in my honest opinion, not consistent with known ivory carving found on these sword types or comparable carved ivories from Burma during this period. the method and quality of the craft which binds the antler is also questionable, I get an almost Laos or Thai flavour from it. In the description Mark provided in his further research of the sword, he notes the panel on which 1798 is found on an added panel whilst the blade dates to 1919, a quandary indeed. On one example known to me, it has the English Royal coat of arms in repousse for this panel. Possibly this sword had it too, removed to fit this addition? Of the blade type, it is a quality blade and considered by myself and others as a mid 19th century type through to the 1920/30's. I find from this point on wards that the blades decrease in size and quality as does the dress, finally to a point from the 1950's on wards where these swords became just a shadow of their predecessors with poor quality blades of roughly the same form and very lazy and poor quality repousse in pot metal. One such 1950's pair of swords known to me were purchased during an officers stay in the Kachin regions of Burma...whether this became a point of sale area or a manufacture area of the later types, I am unsure. There are many online reference points for old Burmese silver, various combinations of word searches will present a wealth of information. All for now. Gavin Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 17th February 2017 at 01:09 AM.

17th February 2017, 02:54 AM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,513	Gavin: Thanks for bringing this one back up. Interesting that you mention a Lao or Thai flavor to some of the decoration. I was thinking the same thing about the segmented silver panels that run the length of the scabbard. I have thought this was a particularly Lao trait, with multiple panels used to depict various elements in repoussed silver. Of course, the finding of Lao work on Burmese swords is perhaps not surprising, and if I recall correctly the Burmese enslaved Lao craftsmen during one of their conquering expeditions, as did the Thai. I think you are correct that the "story dhas" did increase during the period of British rule and involvement in Burma. They are certainly quite common in Western markets and most do seem to date from the mid-19th C. on. Whether they existed prior to the British period I don't know. I have a presentation dha somewhat similar to Mark's but with an ivory and silver hilt. This one bears an inscription dated 1915. It is tucked away in storage, but I will try to find it and post pictures here. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 17th February 2017 at 05:02 AM.

14th December 2004, 05:01 PM	#1
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	The face is a demon of some sort -- the boar-like tusks are usually supposed to indicate a demon in Asian art. Demons are not necessarity "demonic" as we understand it. Perhaps a better work would be "ogre." They turn up in a very of the Burmese myths and legends. The figures, as you can see from this one close-up, are very detailed and each is different. There are six humans, male and female, two demons/orgres, one male one female, and two stags. There are no clear "attributes," such as you might see in depections of Hindu gods and heroes to tell you if they are supposed to someone particular. But I suspect that they represent either specific characters in a story, or possibly spirits (called nat in Burmese), of which there are over a hundred. The investigation continues ...

15th December 2004, 03:23 PM	#2
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thanks Mark. I'm really enjoying this dha. If you have time, please do post more pictures/details of this dha... its simply amazing!

26th December 2004, 07:42 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Portuguese settlers in Birmania, being or not mercenaries, are more abundantly quoted in earlier chronicles. They got there around 1512 and soon they engaged in either side of the conflicts between Sion and Pegu, having in their skills the use of firearms. Later by the end of that century, two portuguese adventurers joined the armies of Mim Razagi, in conquering the kingdom of Pegu. One of them, Salvador de Sousa, was named King of Pegu, and the other,Filipe Nicote, was given Syriam, a river island harbour in the Erawady river delta, building a fort and a town that still exists. He was impaled in 1608. Any relation between this and the mercenary quoted by Mark?

17th February 2017, 01:12 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,660	Thank you for bringing this thread back Gav! Its been a few years and good to see this analytic look at dhas and seeing the core of knowledge with the guys in the discussion. Given the brilliant work by Ian on the 'what is this sword ?' thread.....this is perfectly timed. I look forward to learning more on these as my knowledge on them is limited, but they are a fascinating form .