Hudiedao

KuKulzA28 · 23rd July 2009, 01:26 PM

I see. Perhaps the pirate-kings were no different from the bandit-kings on land (in essence), both drew the desperate, whether good fighters or not, and both needed open lawless territory to maneuver in. Thus the frontiers of the Empire and the Sea were great places. However, I would think that bandits rarely got away with amassing as large numbers as the Chinese pirates did...
It would probably be impossible to know, but did some pirate kings have a state-style rule over their crew and subjects? Or was it just everyone for themselves, and the king was just the most ruthless and influential of them all, feared enough to be obeyed? Or was it a system of patron/client, the pirates would obey the pirate-king's orders so long as the king provided for them well-enough and demonstrated peerless tactics/courage/benevolence/legitimacy/ruthlessness etc. - a buccaneer's version of the mandate of heaven I suppose...?

Jim McDougall · 23rd July 2009, 04:38 PM

It seems most of what we know of these pirate entities comes from romanticized and sensationalized literature or narratives, and I honestly cannot claim to having read much of this. However, what I have presumed is based on notes, research and discussions over the years, and simply considering the kinds of embellishments that typically become emplaced in tales of these figures.
I think it would take focused and in depth research on specific regions and pirate groups to really understand what sort of hierarchy or organization they might have used, there always had to be a command figure, and that person would need to maintain respect most of all. Whether accomplished through fear, benevolence or any means, leadership was essential. I have always been surprised at the very sensibly represented codes of the European pirates, which were remarkably considered actual democracies of a form.
It seems quite a paradox to have such standards applied to basically an outlaw enterprise, but gives an example of how many of these groups probably organized.

Getting back to the orginal topic, the 'butterfly knives', much as the diverse strata of members of the pirate groups, were likely present in incidental cases.

All best regards,
Jim

23rd July 2009, 01:26 PM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I see. Perhaps the pirate-kings were no different from the bandit-kings on land (in essence), both drew the desperate, whether good fighters or not, and both needed open lawless territory to maneuver in. Thus the frontiers of the Empire and the Sea were great places. However, I would think that bandits rarely got away with amassing as large numbers as the Chinese pirates did... It would probably be impossible to know, but did some pirate kings have a state-style rule over their crew and subjects? Or was it just everyone for themselves, and the king was just the most ruthless and influential of them all, feared enough to be obeyed? Or was it a system of patron/client, the pirates would obey the pirate-king's orders so long as the king provided for them well-enough and demonstrated peerless tactics/courage/benevolence/legitimacy/ruthlessness etc. - a buccaneer's version of the mandate of heaven I suppose...?

23rd July 2009, 04:38 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,283	It seems most of what we know of these pirate entities comes from romanticized and sensationalized literature or narratives, and I honestly cannot claim to having read much of this. However, what I have presumed is based on notes, research and discussions over the years, and simply considering the kinds of embellishments that typically become emplaced in tales of these figures. I think it would take focused and in depth research on specific regions and pirate groups to really understand what sort of hierarchy or organization they might have used, there always had to be a command figure, and that person would need to maintain respect most of all. Whether accomplished through fear, benevolence or any means, leadership was essential. I have always been surprised at the very sensibly represented codes of the European pirates, which were remarkably considered actual democracies of a form. It seems quite a paradox to have such standards applied to basically an outlaw enterprise, but gives an example of how many of these groups probably organized. Getting back to the orginal topic, the 'butterfly knives', much as the diverse strata of members of the pirate groups, were likely present in incidental cases. All best regards, Jim