Five Ball Hilt spadroons - Page 4

Jim McDougall · 19th July 2009, 01:57 PM

Looking further into the choice of the word 'spadroon' and perhaps my query on it should have been directed more toward its semantics than etymology, I found some interesting notes in Egerton Castle's book "Schools and Masters of Fence" (p.207). These would seem to somewhat support my thoughts toward the term being more of a pretentious application used with reference to gentlemans fencing weapons and techniques of the times. Coupled with neoclassic allusion and the cultured elegance obsessions of the gentry, the term seems to have been more of a colloquial term in the sense of a fad of this period referring to cut and thrust.

Castle notes on p.207, "...the Italians and Germans had, it is true, a cutting play of thier own, and from them we took our so-called 'spadroon' or cut and thrust play, but it was practiced with weapons extremely light in comparison with our English backsword".

On p.243, Castle notes further, "...a cutting sword of still narrower dimensions, and with a much simpler guard approximating that of the smallsword was called 'spadroon' in England; it was in fact similar to the German cut and thrust rapier of the 18th century, which has been called spadone or spadrone since the disuse of the regular two handed swords, in the same way as the claymore retained the old name of a very different weapon".
* the reference to claymore of course meaning basket hilt, while the actual claymore was the Scottish two hand great sword.

"...the German spadroon was a regular double edged sword, but any light back or shearing sword was so called in English.

Best regards,
Jim

Hotspur · 20th July 2009, 07:00 AM

Bingo

Hotspur · 22nd July 2009, 02:20 AM

Well duh. I do live under a rock in looking at the past. Some quite interesting beading from the past.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13784

Cheers

Hotspur; I wonder if the Switzzlers and Germane-ish types were masonic

sarcasm, please excuse a senile old man

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2009, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Well duh. I do live under a rock in looking at the past. Some quite interesting beading from the past.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13784

Cheers

Hotspur; I wonder if the Switzzlers and Germane-ish types were masonic

sarcasm, please excuse a senile old man

Aw Glen, ya rascal!!!

Very good observation, and you're right, they're beads of sorts

Great to see Eljays work, he's always been brilliant at working on swords, from when we collected British patterns in California together about thirty some years ago. I truly learned a lot from him and his knowledge of European swords, which gives his work the elegance that is well known.

Nice one Glen....and uh, senile is not you... you're too sharp !(sword pun)

All the best,
Jim

Dmitry · 3rd September 2010, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Jim and Glen,

Michel Petard in Des Sabres et Des Epees States that the "5-ball" style was taken from the English in 1795.

All the Best.

Jeff, would it be troublesome to look up the number 161 C sword in the picture you posted? I have a sword with the exact decoration on the guard - a hippocampus.

Thanks!

Jeff D · 4th September 2010, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Jeff, would it be troublesome to look up the number 161 C sword in the picture you posted? I have a sword with the exact decoration on the guard - a hippocampus.

Thanks!

Hi Dmitry,

It simply states that this is the "seahorse version of the naval officers sword". I will include a scan of the caption (sorry about the poor quality).

All the best
Jeff

Dmitry · 4th September 2010, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Dmitry,

It simply states that this is the "seahorse version of the naval officers sword". I will include a scan of the caption (sorry about the poor quality).

All the best
Jeff

Jeff, thank you very much! This confirms that my sword was a naval officer's weapon.

Jeff D · 4th September 2010, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Jeff, thank you very much! This confirms that my sword was a naval officer's weapon.

Very nice!

Jeff

M ELEY · 5th September 2010, 04:21 AM

Yes,green with envy,Dmitry!! Very nice sword...

Jeff, you show a naval reference. It wouldn't happen to be 'LeSabre D' abortage' by M Petard, would it? I was wondering if anyone can recommend this book? If it's not Petard's, could you name this reference? Thanks!
Mark

Jeff D · 5th September 2010, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Yes,green with envy,Dmitry!! Very nice sword...

Jeff, you show a naval reference. It wouldn't happen to be 'LeSabre D' abortage' by M Petard, would it? I was wondering if anyone can recommend this book? If it's not Petard's, could you name this reference? Thanks!
Mark

Hi Mark,

I think I listed it on the original scan which Dmitry was inquiring about. It is Michel Petard's Des Sabres et Des Epees Tome I .

All the Best
Jeff

M ELEY · 5th September 2010, 07:04 AM

Thank you, Jeff. Sorry I missed the original reference. I'll have to keep an eye out for a copy of Petard's volume.

Hotspur · 6th September 2010, 02:21 AM

I know that sword Dmitry

Another possible small naval from Shiloh came my way this spring and I had adopted it. This one is really quite an oddball and maybe harder to place in time than the hippocampus counterguard. I had seen another twin to that one somewhere and I am forgetting where.

Cheers

GC

Alan62 · 7th September 2010, 03:44 AM

Hi Jim,,
The sword that you used in the your first post is still hanging in my collection.
I have another spadroon that I am thinking about buying yet I am having a bit of trouble identifying the model,,I have determined it to be made by Wooley,,due to a vague mark near the ricasso
I will attach some very poor pics of the hilt and perhaps one of you guys will recognize it.
One of the photos in the post above mine has a very similuar hilt yet has a large curved blade. Mine has a straight sharp blade like the 5 ball hilt in the picture you used in the original post.
I apologize for the quality of the photos,I had to take with a cell phone and will post better ones if I decide to make the purchase.
Thanks for any input

Dmitry · 8th September 2010, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Another possible small naval from Shiloh came my way this spring and I had adopted it. This one is really quite an oddball and maybe harder to place in time than the hippocampus counterguard. I had seen another twin to that one somewhere and I am forgetting where.

Cheers

GC

Hello, Glen.
This is a nice sword in French style. It's not naval, but an army officer's, perhaps etat-major.

M ELEY · 8th September 2010, 06:33 AM

Beautiful sword, Glen! As Dmitry pointed out, it's probably French and with no absolute naval provenance, there's no way of proof. However, In Annis book on sea swords, he does say that hangers (which were very popular with naval personnel) that had nautical motiffs might very well have seen service at sea. Things such as shell guards, sea horses, anchors, Poseidon, ocean waves, etc, that wouldn't normally appeal to a hunter (who would prefer a more decorated piece with wild boar, splay of weapons, hunting dogs, powderhorn decoration, etc, etc. In 'Swords for Sea Sercive', May says that some of these might have also appealed to Marine officers, if not naval personnel. Of course, your sword isn't a hanger, but one never knows where it might have served.

Hotspur · 8th September 2010, 06:05 PM

Thanks Dmitry,

This one was in really rough condition, with the blade covered with a deep layer of crusty rust. The wear side ha been ground down as if mounted on a display and still retains some of the screws in the hilt. This had been priced accordingly for my budget and was of interest for exactly threads such as this one.

Cheers

GC

Jim McDougall · 9th September 2010, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan62

Hi Jim,,
The sword that you used in the your first post is still hanging in my collection.
I have another spadroon that I am thinking about buying yet I am having a bit of trouble identifying the model,,I have determined it to be made by Wooley,,due to a vague mark near the ricasso
I will attach some very poor pics of the hilt and perhaps one of you guys will recognize it.
One of the photos in the post above mine has a very similuar hilt yet has a large curved blade. Mine has a straight sharp blade like the 5 ball hilt in the picture you used in the original post.
I apologize for the quality of the photos,I had to take with a cell phone and will post better ones if I decide to make the purchase.
Thanks for any input

Hi Alan,
That sword is indeed a beauty!!! and this one is nice also, especially marked to Wooley. This is an infantry officers spadroon in my opinion, and Wooley seems to have greatly favored French fashion c.1790s and early 19th century. The fluted ebony grip is similar to grips I have seen on his sabres with brass stirrup hilts, one marked Wooley & Deakin (1801-1803). The hilt style on this corresponds to those of c.1780s and I have seen these in silver with the raised perpandicular crossguard design, it seems 1790s to about 1810. This is what I recollect offhand, but personally I think they're very attractive sabres, and in line with the five ball hilt style.

All best regards,
Jim

Alan62 · 9th September 2010, 12:52 PM

Thank you Jim,,It was the fluted ebony that made me have to have it.
Again Thank you for your knowledge
Alan

5th September 2010, 04:21 AM	#99
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Yes,green with envy,Dmitry!! Very nice sword... Jeff, you show a naval reference. It wouldn't happen to be 'LeSabre D' abortage' by M Petard, would it? I was wondering if anyone can recommend this book? If it's not Petard's, could you name this reference? Thanks! Mark Last edited by M ELEY; 5th September 2010 at 04:39 AM.

6th September 2010, 02:21 AM	#102
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 524	I know that sword Dmitry Another possible small naval from Shiloh came my way this spring and I had adopted it. This one is really quite an oddball and maybe harder to place in time than the hippocampus counterguard. I had seen another twin to that one somewhere and I am forgetting where. Cheers GC Attached Images

19th July 2009, 01:57 PM	#91
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,470	Looking further into the choice of the word 'spadroon' and perhaps my query on it should have been directed more toward its semantics than etymology, I found some interesting notes in Egerton Castle's book "Schools and Masters of Fence" (p.207). These would seem to somewhat support my thoughts toward the term being more of a pretentious application used with reference to gentlemans fencing weapons and techniques of the times. Coupled with neoclassic allusion and the cultured elegance obsessions of the gentry, the term seems to have been more of a colloquial term in the sense of a fad of this period referring to cut and thrust. Castle notes on p.207, "...the Italians and Germans had, it is true, a cutting play of thier own, and from them we took our so-called 'spadroon' or cut and thrust play, but it was practiced with weapons extremely light in comparison with our English backsword". On p.243, Castle notes further, "...a cutting sword of still narrower dimensions, and with a much simpler guard approximating that of the smallsword was called 'spadroon' in England; it was in fact similar to the German cut and thrust rapier of the 18th century, which has been called spadone or spadrone since the disuse of the regular two handed swords, in the same way as the claymore retained the old name of a very different weapon". * the reference to claymore of course meaning basket hilt, while the actual claymore was the Scottish two hand great sword. "...the German spadroon was a regular double edged sword, but any light back or shearing sword was so called in English. Best regards, Jim

20th July 2009, 07:00 AM	#92
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 524	Bingo

22nd July 2009, 02:20 AM	#93
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 524	Well duh. I do live under a rock in looking at the past. Some quite interesting beading from the past. http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13784 Cheers Hotspur; I wonder if the Switzzlers and Germane-ish types were masonic sarcasm, please excuse a senile old man

5th September 2010, 07:04 AM	#101
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Thank you, Jeff. Sorry I missed the original reference. I'll have to keep an eye out for a copy of Petard's volume.

7th September 2010, 03:44 AM	#103
Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 164	Hi Jim,, The sword that you used in the your first post is still hanging in my collection. I have another spadroon that I am thinking about buying yet I am having a bit of trouble identifying the model,,I have determined it to be made by Wooley,,due to a vague mark near the ricasso I will attach some very poor pics of the hilt and perhaps one of you guys will recognize it. One of the photos in the post above mine has a very similuar hilt yet has a large curved blade. Mine has a straight sharp blade like the 5 ball hilt in the picture you used in the original post. I apologize for the quality of the photos,I had to take with a cell phone and will post better ones if I decide to make the purchase. Thanks for any input

8th September 2010, 06:33 AM	#105
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Beautiful sword, Glen! As Dmitry pointed out, it's probably French and with no absolute naval provenance, there's no way of proof. However, In Annis book on sea swords, he does say that hangers (which were very popular with naval personnel) that had nautical motiffs might very well have seen service at sea. Things such as shell guards, sea horses, anchors, Poseidon, ocean waves, etc, that wouldn't normally appeal to a hunter (who would prefer a more decorated piece with wild boar, splay of weapons, hunting dogs, powderhorn decoration, etc, etc. In 'Swords for Sea Sercive', May says that some of these might have also appealed to Marine officers, if not naval personnel. Of course, your sword isn't a hanger, but one never knows where it might have served.

8th September 2010, 06:05 PM	#106
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 524	Thanks Dmitry, This one was in really rough condition, with the blade covered with a deep layer of crusty rust. The wear side ha been ground down as if mounted on a display and still retains some of the screws in the hilt. This had been priced accordingly for my budget and was of interest for exactly threads such as this one. Cheers GC

9th September 2010, 12:52 PM	#108
Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 164	Thank you Jim,,It was the fluted ebony that made me have to have it. Again Thank you for your knowledge Alan