Wallachian Swords of the 15th Century: What Types?

Emanuel · 20th July 2009, 05:51 PM

Here is a 17th century sword, having belonged to Constantin Brancoveanu (1654 - 1714).

Emanuel · 20th July 2009, 07:04 PM

One quick thought that came to mind. Both Vlad Tepes and his predecessors are documented to have used guerilla and ambush tactics, since invariably they were faced with larger armies.

Basarab I defeated the Hungarian king Charles I in 1330 by ambushing his large forces in a mountain pass.

Vlad Tepes led a night attack agianst Mehmet II near Targoviste in 1462, and continually harassed his superior troups during his retreat.

The oral history I got from parents and family and the little history I read often re-iterates the theme of Dacian and later Vlach armies resisting invasions in the Carpathian mountains.

TVV · 20th July 2009, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Here is a 17th century sword, having belonged to Constantin Brancoveanu (1654 - 1714).

Very nice sword, even thougbh it is much later than the discussed period. The blade looks like those blades with the Virgin Mary, for which Astvatsaturian claims were produced in Constantinople. There is a similar one I think in the catalogue for Rizsrad Janiak's collection.
It makes sense that high quality sabre blades with Christian symbols were produced for nobles from Orthodox and Catholic countires, whose aramament was under ehavy Eastern influence, such as Russia, the Danube Principalities and Poland.
Regards,
Teodor

Gonzalo G · 21st July 2009, 01:44 AM

Sorry, Teodore, I read more carefully your statements about the brothers Peter and Asen in home, and you are right. At first, I understood that you said they were roman, but you didn´t. Yes, they were were members of the provincial nobilty in the Roman Empire, though not from roman origin.

You see, I have but a very small time online, sometimes I read too quickly and make a likewise too quick response post, or I save some web pages in my PC, I read them latter in home, and days after I answer in the the forum...just to find that then, somebody says, "hey, that was already answered in the post number 3!!"...I must be more careful, since confusions and writting mistakes are multiplied in this rush.

I agree with all your statements from that post. Though when I answer maybe I will find that you already answered to my previous note. My apologies.
Regards

Gonzalo

Gonzalo G · 21st July 2009, 01:59 AM

Very interesting, Emanuel! I think you have access to a better sources than I, beign rumanian. I would be driven crazy (yes, still more) in that bibliotéque of yours, in the Toronto University. Yet, there remains many contradictions in the different versions of the history of that period and place. Even the marxist historians from that area seem to repeat old myths. You have to peel layer by layer the facts, versions and interpretations to get the hard core of it.
Regards

Gonzalo

Emanuel · 21st July 2009, 02:09 AM

Being Romanian does not imply being knowledgeable about Romania, Gonzalo

I left Romania in grade 2. All I know is from my family, as I stated, and what I've studied on my own. I'm horrible with dates and I often need refreshers.

The monstrous UT library and I have become strangers lately (a recurring theme in my life)...I spend my time studying urban planning and city council decisions.

I quite agree about historians Gonzalo. Beginning in the 18th century, and particualrly in the 19th, there was great interest in the past. Romanian nationalism required the crafting of a heroic, almost-mythical past and facts were naturally bent to conform to the desired narrative.

All the best!
Emanuel

Emanuel · 21st July 2009, 03:14 AM

Here we go, some pics from 15th and turn of 16th century...from the top:

- 15th century flail and crossbow from Sibiu
- Cavalry of Mihai the Brave
- Mid-16th century war hammer and early 16th century mace
- Fresco from the walls of Sucevita monastery church, end-15th century - this one's interesting...cavalry in maille armed with lances, pikemen with polearms, swords seem to be straight, can't tell too well. The armor looks Turkish though, doesn't it?
The inscription at the top is romanian in church slavonic, if cyrillic readers can transliterate, i can read what it says.
- The sword of Stefan the Great, now in the Topkapi.
- Courtier and archer from the time of Alexander the Good (1400-1432). Moldovan prince, but relevant nonetheless.

TVV · 21st July 2009, 06:45 AM

Gonzalo, no problems. There was nothing wrong about your note, and Vasary is one of the best accepted authors on the subject of Eastern Nomads and their influence on the Balkans in the 12th to 15th centuries.

But we should get back on topic. Manuel, I am afraid the inscription is not in Romanian, but in a Slavic language which is quite similar to Russian. I can only read the last part, which says "and with charriots". I also think I can see the name "Israel" there as well, and I suspect the crowned figure says Pharaoh. Of course, Romanian was influenced by Slavic languages, so the inscription might be in Romanian, though I doubt it. I suspect the fresco represents a scene from the Exodus.

It is interesting that the charriots look similar to wagenburgs, which as we know were used by the Bohemians in the army of Vladislav III of Poland at Varna in 1444. It illustrates how artists painted what they were familiar with themselves, and so this fresco is probably a good presentation of armament and costume from the times.

After staring at the fresco, I can see a lot of maces and hammers, but the only sword I see is found on a foot soldiers behind the Pharaoh, and it looks curved.

Thank you for sharing these pictures, Emanuel.

Regards,
Teodor

Matchlock · 9th April 2010, 10:39 AM

- 15th century flail and crossbow from Sibiu

Hi Emanuel,

Could you please give the full bibliographic data of the book that you got that picture from?

Thank you in advance,
Michael

Reventlov · 28th February 2023, 10:27 PM

New thread continues here.

Gonzalo G · 22nd July 2009, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Being Romanian does not imply being knowledgeable about Romania, Gonzalo

Emanuel

Of course, Emanuel, but having your passion over this subjects, and the knowledge of the romanian languaje, you can access many sources many of us can´t. Thank you for the images, very interesting material!!
Regards

Gonzalo

pallas · 22nd July 2009, 07:31 PM

in the book, vasary put forward the three most common theories about the brother's ethnic identities and he seemed to favor the theory that the brothers where vlachs who had some cuman/kipchak ancestry as evidenced by one of the brothers having the turkic name "asen" (and that some sort of ethnic connection was one of the reasons the brothers found ready support from the kipchaks/cumans north of the danube) and that the vlachs, if i remember right, where to a degree ethnically integrated with the bulgars.

anyways its one of the more fascinating locations/periods of european history, where europen and asiatic steppe cultures where constantly in flux.

on a semi related note, ive been wondering how the kipchak/cumans became heavily armored cavalry as mamelukes when they had no tradition of it on the crimean steppes??? was this a tradition handed down from the ayyubids/fatimids and the kipchak/cumans where trained to adapt to it or did the kipchaks actually have a tradition of havily armored cavalry that im not aware of? sorry if this is a dumb question, ive been on a quest lately to find good historical reading material on the mamelukes (mainly the bahri dynasty, it seems the circassian burj dynasty was an era of decline for the mamelukes) but havent had much luck.

20th July 2009, 05:51 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Here is a 17th century sword, having belonged to Constantin Brancoveanu (1654 - 1714). Attached Images

21st July 2009, 01:59 AM	#5
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Very interesting, Emanuel! I think you have access to a better sources than I, beign rumanian. I would be driven crazy (yes, still more) in that bibliotéque of yours, in the Toronto University. Yet, there remains many contradictions in the different versions of the history of that period and place. Even the marxist historians from that area seem to repeat old myths. You have to peel layer by layer the facts, versions and interpretations to get the hard core of it. Regards Gonzalo Last edited by Gonzalo G; 21st July 2009 at 02:12 AM.

21st July 2009, 02:09 AM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Being Romanian does not imply being knowledgeable about Romania, Gonzalo I left Romania in grade 2. All I know is from my family, as I stated, and what I've studied on my own. I'm horrible with dates and I often need refreshers. The monstrous UT library and I have become strangers lately (a recurring theme in my life)...I spend my time studying urban planning and city council decisions. I quite agree about historians Gonzalo. Beginning in the 18th century, and particualrly in the 19th, there was great interest in the past. Romanian nationalism required the crafting of a heroic, almost-mythical past and facts were naturally bent to conform to the desired narrative. All the best! Emanuel Last edited by Emanuel; 21st July 2009 at 03:28 AM.

21st July 2009, 03:14 AM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Pics... Here we go, some pics from 15th and turn of 16th century...from the top: - 15th century flail and crossbow from Sibiu - Cavalry of Mihai the Brave - Mid-16th century war hammer and early 16th century mace - Fresco from the walls of Sucevita monastery church, end-15th century - this one's interesting...cavalry in maille armed with lances, pikemen with polearms, swords seem to be straight, can't tell too well. The armor looks Turkish though, doesn't it? The inscription at the top is romanian in church slavonic, if cyrillic readers can transliterate, i can read what it says. - The sword of Stefan the Great, now in the Topkapi. - Courtier and archer from the time of Alexander the Good (1400-1432). Moldovan prince, but relevant nonetheless. Attached Images Last edited by Emanuel; 21st July 2009 at 03:29 AM.

20th July 2009, 07:04 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	One quick thought that came to mind. Both Vlad Tepes and his predecessors are documented to have used guerilla and ambush tactics, since invariably they were faced with larger armies. Basarab I defeated the Hungarian king Charles I in 1330 by ambushing his large forces in a mountain pass. Vlad Tepes led a night attack agianst Mehmet II near Targoviste in 1462, and continually harassed his superior troups during his retreat. The oral history I got from parents and family and the little history I read often re-iterates the theme of Dacian and later Vlach armies resisting invasions in the Carpathian mountains.

21st July 2009, 01:44 AM	#4
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Sorry, Teodore, I read more carefully your statements about the brothers Peter and Asen in home, and you are right. At first, I understood that you said they were roman, but you didn´t. Yes, they were were members of the provincial nobilty in the Roman Empire, though not from roman origin. You see, I have but a very small time online, sometimes I read too quickly and make a likewise too quick response post, or I save some web pages in my PC, I read them latter in home, and days after I answer in the the forum...just to find that then, somebody says, "hey, that was already answered in the post number 3!!"...I must be more careful, since confusions and writting mistakes are multiplied in this rush. I agree with all your statements from that post. Though when I answer maybe I will find that you already answered to my previous note. My apologies. Regards Gonzalo

21st July 2009, 06:45 AM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Gonzalo, no problems. There was nothing wrong about your note, and Vasary is one of the best accepted authors on the subject of Eastern Nomads and their influence on the Balkans in the 12th to 15th centuries. But we should get back on topic. Manuel, I am afraid the inscription is not in Romanian, but in a Slavic language which is quite similar to Russian. I can only read the last part, which says "and with charriots". I also think I can see the name "Israel" there as well, and I suspect the crowned figure says Pharaoh. Of course, Romanian was influenced by Slavic languages, so the inscription might be in Romanian, though I doubt it. I suspect the fresco represents a scene from the Exodus. It is interesting that the charriots look similar to wagenburgs, which as we know were used by the Bohemians in the army of Vladislav III of Poland at Varna in 1444. It illustrates how artists painted what they were familiar with themselves, and so this fresco is probably a good presentation of armament and costume from the times. After staring at the fresco, I can see a lot of maces and hammers, but the only sword I see is found on a foot soldiers behind the Pharaoh, and it looks curved. Thank you for sharing these pictures, Emanuel. Regards, Teodor

9th April 2010, 10:39 AM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	- 15th century flail and crossbow from Sibiu Hi Emanuel, Could you please give the full bibliographic data of the book that you got that picture from? Thank you in advance, Michael

28th February 2023, 10:27 PM	#10
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 138	New thread continues here.

22nd July 2009, 07:31 PM	#12
pallas Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 53	in the book, vasary put forward the three most common theories about the brother's ethnic identities and he seemed to favor the theory that the brothers where vlachs who had some cuman/kipchak ancestry as evidenced by one of the brothers having the turkic name "asen" (and that some sort of ethnic connection was one of the reasons the brothers found ready support from the kipchaks/cumans north of the danube) and that the vlachs, if i remember right, where to a degree ethnically integrated with the bulgars. anyways its one of the more fascinating locations/periods of european history, where europen and asiatic steppe cultures where constantly in flux. on a semi related note, ive been wondering how the kipchak/cumans became heavily armored cavalry as mamelukes when they had no tradition of it on the crimean steppes??? was this a tradition handed down from the ayyubids/fatimids and the kipchak/cumans where trained to adapt to it or did the kipchaks actually have a tradition of havily armored cavalry that im not aware of? sorry if this is a dumb question, ive been on a quest lately to find good historical reading material on the mamelukes (mainly the bahri dynasty, it seems the circassian burj dynasty was an era of decline for the mamelukes) but havent had much luck.