Popularity of 'katar' shapes?

KuKulzA28 · 18th July 2009, 06:30 AM

Thanks. It is interesting you note regional armor-usage and Mahratta preference for slashing in their fighting, I'll keep those two things in mind as I keep looking at different katars!

It's just fascinating to see how different Indian martial arts use the same type of weapon very differently...

ariel · 18th July 2009, 03:25 PM

The manner of holding katars as well as their frequent feature of reinforced tips ostensibly suggests exclusively ( or, at least, mainly) stabbing purpose. However, their long relative, Pata, was an exclusively slashing weapon. Jim is also correct in pointing out the widespread use of european blades,- thin and flexible, with (often) rounded tips, not suitable for stabbing, especially through the armor.
As a matter of fact, katars are quite handy slashing weapons: just grab one and try :-)
Even if their original purpose was stabbing ( see Elgood's book with photographs of statues), it was inevitable for their slashing ability to be emphasized in the creation of curved blades.

Jim McDougall · 19th July 2009, 12:48 PM

Hi Kukulz,
I would like to thank you for opening this great topic for discussion, and you have indeed piqued my curiosity! Frankly, though we have discussed katars many times through the years, and the obvious selection of curved vs. the prevalent straight blades has not as far as I know, been considered.

I have looked through most of the extant resources, which offer no tangible explanation for blade variations, though noting the examples typically catalogued or pictured, the blades are indeed most often straight. The resources I looked into were "Hindu Arms and Ritual" (Robert Elgood); "Indian Arms and Armour" (G.N.Pant); "Traditional Weapons of India" (E.Jaiwent Paul); and of course the venerable Egerton reference.

In previous discussions of the development of the pata, the well known 'gauntlet' sword, it seems generally held that these evolved from the katar. What remains uncertain is the origin and development of the katar itself, and one of the most unusual references is in Stone, showing a curious weapon claimed c.15th century, 'Moorish', and termed the 'manople'. This is a gauntlet type weapon with straight blade and blades parallel on either side of the central larger blade, giving it a trident effect. For a time, this curious weapon was somewhat entertained as a potential proto-katar/pata, but later discovered that Stone had perpetuated an error from earlier cataloguing of the Armeria Real in Madrid (Jubinal, c.1840), and that this was simply a version of pata with unclear provenance. The resemblance to the trident (trisula) of Shiva is clear evidence of Indian influence, or possibly even provenance.

Whatever the case, it remains that most katar blades are straight, with those of primarily Mahratta origin with cut down European sword blades, in the west, to the hooded hand guard examples of Tanjore, to the east. The preponderance of katars of the most commonly seen form, and with reinforced armor piercing tip, seem to be from the northern regions with Rajput and Sikh provenance. In Egerton, the captions reflect provenance for most of these from Lahore, Patiala, and Punjab, all northern regions.

To the south of these regions is Gujerat and Kach, where the rather distinct hilt of the so called 'Garsoe' katar is found, again typically straight blades.
In these regions, the katar is a profound symbol, where in Kathiwar and the Kattee people swear oaths and agreements on its blade.

In Pant, there is mention of a katar with curved blade in the Prince of Wales Museum in Bombay (p.170) and it is stated of 17th century and Maratha, curiously noting it is thickened at the tip, which seems atypical with the known use of slashing cuts employed by them. Perhaps a suggestion that the katar may have developed in the north in Rajput regions as often suggested?
However, it should be noted that Pant often seems quite liberal in his assignment of period, and items referenced from many museums are from provenances that seem, in my opinion, seriously clouded.

Pant also cites a curved blade example of late 17th century from Delhi (p.170, fig. 527) with a blade recurved in 'bichwa' form. It is important to note that in Pant, the katar is referred to by the apparantly proper term, 'jamadhar' which is the word describing this weapon in Indian language. The katar term is believed to have become misapplied in the Egerton work, and became a collectors reference to the transverse hilt 'punch daggers'.
It is so soundly entrenched as the descriptive term in place, it would only be counterproductive and confusing to try to correct this error at this point.

With this overview, I have added simply for the benefit of general readers and those not already familiar with all of this information, I think it would be interesting to continue the discussion of the query Kukulz has posed.

Although there are seemingly few examples of curved bladed katars, what would compel the choice of these blades? We know that the manner of use may be of course, the key factor, and that most katars familiar to us are the northern versions with reinforced armour piercing tip. We also know that the bichwa daggers with recurved blades were a popularly chosen form, and perhaps if I recall, somewhat regional. Possibly regions favoring the bichwa may be of some association to curved blade katars?

I do hope others out there will join in with thier ideas, as I think Kukulz has presented a most astutely observed question, and this is our opportunity to learn more on these familiar, yet apparantly under researched weapons.

All very best regards,
Jim

KuKulzA28 · 20th July 2009, 03:10 AM

Thanks ariel and Jim for the input.
I am surprised it has not been brought up more!

I never knew the manople was actually a mislabled pata - I wonder how many more naming mistakes are currently unknown since the Western world of catalogers often rely on the worked done before them. For example we may call something a sirupati or sundang or cutacha... but it may mean something different to the locals using it, whether they call all kukris sirupatis, or only certain bolos sundangs, or all machetes (regardless of use) a machete... (or perhaps local categorization is different).

It is interesting to note the bichwa-shaped blade on a katar - while that shape is so different than the triangular one we are used to, it seems ubiquitous in all of today's Kalaripayattu halls as far as I know. I understand that Bichwa were popular in the Maratha areas (Western Ghats? my Indian geography is shaky), but that Bichwa dagger-styles were also to be found in Tamil areas - not necessarily in loop handles, sometimes with conventional grips. So was the bichwa design prevalent in Kerala? I doubt they were ignorant of it, it seems to be popular throughout India, especially in Maratha places.

But why change the design? It was already an effective slashing weapon with the triangular blade, as seen with the Marathas.... if those slashing and punching moves worked on armored (mail and padded cloth) opponents, why would there be any changes necessary to accommodate the scantily clothed in the south? Perhaps styles and preferences diverged a long time ago?

As Jim mentioned, the katars in the north often had swollen tips, Marathas often had European blades riveted to the katar handles, the East often exhibited the hand guard... perhaps the novelty of the southern katar was it's blade shape - but what could lead to this uniqueness?

I am aware it might be 'dangerous' to generalize and stereotpye the katars of each region. If there's one thing I learned on these forums, it's that things are not concrete, a Dutch cutlass blade in Javanese handle, a laminated Jian in villager dress, Persian wootz in Russian dagger, German sword blade in African sword, Yunnan swords used by Koxinga troops, katanas imitated by SE Asians, etc.

KuKulzA28 · 28th August 2009, 08:01 AM

Jens Nordlunde seemed to have touched on a very similar theme in this old thread.

KuKulzA28 · 4th January 2010, 06:03 AM

I'm not sure if it's "OK" to resurrect this thread, about 8 months since it's start... but I thought this would interest some people. I did not have a good clear photo of a Kerala-katar used in Kalaripayattu, and I don't think many outside of Kerala and Kalaripayattu training know much about it specifically...

link the Kerala-katar

Photo edited to be "right-side up"

Found this guy while looking up Taiwanese aboriginal knives and Native American quivers in the database.

Good enough example? Any interest for discussion?

Could this Kerala / Kalaripayattu style katar simply be a martial arts specialization weapon? Some martial arts have a specialized weapon that their art is often known by... or a master fighter had taken a common or uncommon weapon and further modified it and developed further techniques for it that is carried down in his fighting art.

20th July 2009, 03:10 AM	#4
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Thanks ariel and Jim for the input. I am surprised it has not been brought up more! I never knew the manople was actually a mislabled pata - I wonder how many more naming mistakes are currently unknown since the Western world of catalogers often rely on the worked done before them. For example we may call something a sirupati or sundang or cutacha... but it may mean something different to the locals using it, whether they call all kukris sirupatis, or only certain bolos sundangs, or all machetes (regardless of use) a machete... (or perhaps local categorization is different). It is interesting to note the bichwa-shaped blade on a katar - while that shape is so different than the triangular one we are used to, it seems ubiquitous in all of today's Kalaripayattu halls as far as I know. I understand that Bichwa were popular in the Maratha areas (Western Ghats? my Indian geography is shaky), but that Bichwa dagger-styles were also to be found in Tamil areas - not necessarily in loop handles, sometimes with conventional grips. So was the bichwa design prevalent in Kerala? I doubt they were ignorant of it, it seems to be popular throughout India, especially in Maratha places. But why change the design? It was already an effective slashing weapon with the triangular blade, as seen with the Marathas.... if those slashing and punching moves worked on armored (mail and padded cloth) opponents, why would there be any changes necessary to accommodate the scantily clothed in the south? Perhaps styles and preferences diverged a long time ago? As Jim mentioned, the katars in the north often had swollen tips, Marathas often had European blades riveted to the katar handles, the East often exhibited the hand guard... perhaps the novelty of the southern katar was it's blade shape - but what could lead to this uniqueness? I am aware it might be 'dangerous' to generalize and stereotpye the katars of each region. If there's one thing I learned on these forums, it's that things are not concrete, a Dutch cutlass blade in Javanese handle, a laminated Jian in villager dress, Persian wootz in Russian dagger, German sword blade in African sword, Yunnan swords used by Koxinga troops, katanas imitated by SE Asians, etc. Last edited by KuKulzA28; 20th July 2009 at 03:23 AM.

18th July 2009, 06:30 AM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Thanks. It is interesting you note regional armor-usage and Mahratta preference for slashing in their fighting, I'll keep those two things in mind as I keep looking at different katars! It's just fascinating to see how different Indian martial arts use the same type of weapon very differently...

18th July 2009, 03:25 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The manner of holding katars as well as their frequent feature of reinforced tips ostensibly suggests exclusively ( or, at least, mainly) stabbing purpose. However, their long relative, Pata, was an exclusively slashing weapon. Jim is also correct in pointing out the widespread use of european blades,- thin and flexible, with (often) rounded tips, not suitable for stabbing, especially through the armor. As a matter of fact, katars are quite handy slashing weapons: just grab one and try :-) Even if their original purpose was stabbing ( see Elgood's book with photographs of statues), it was inevitable for their slashing ability to be emphasized in the creation of curved blades.

19th July 2009, 12:48 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Hi Kukulz, I would like to thank you for opening this great topic for discussion, and you have indeed piqued my curiosity! Frankly, though we have discussed katars many times through the years, and the obvious selection of curved vs. the prevalent straight blades has not as far as I know, been considered. I have looked through most of the extant resources, which offer no tangible explanation for blade variations, though noting the examples typically catalogued or pictured, the blades are indeed most often straight. The resources I looked into were "Hindu Arms and Ritual" (Robert Elgood); "Indian Arms and Armour" (G.N.Pant); "Traditional Weapons of India" (E.Jaiwent Paul); and of course the venerable Egerton reference. In previous discussions of the development of the pata, the well known 'gauntlet' sword, it seems generally held that these evolved from the katar. What remains uncertain is the origin and development of the katar itself, and one of the most unusual references is in Stone, showing a curious weapon claimed c.15th century, 'Moorish', and termed the 'manople'. This is a gauntlet type weapon with straight blade and blades parallel on either side of the central larger blade, giving it a trident effect. For a time, this curious weapon was somewhat entertained as a potential proto-katar/pata, but later discovered that Stone had perpetuated an error from earlier cataloguing of the Armeria Real in Madrid (Jubinal, c.1840), and that this was simply a version of pata with unclear provenance. The resemblance to the trident (trisula) of Shiva is clear evidence of Indian influence, or possibly even provenance. Whatever the case, it remains that most katar blades are straight, with those of primarily Mahratta origin with cut down European sword blades, in the west, to the hooded hand guard examples of Tanjore, to the east. The preponderance of katars of the most commonly seen form, and with reinforced armor piercing tip, seem to be from the northern regions with Rajput and Sikh provenance. In Egerton, the captions reflect provenance for most of these from Lahore, Patiala, and Punjab, all northern regions. To the south of these regions is Gujerat and Kach, where the rather distinct hilt of the so called 'Garsoe' katar is found, again typically straight blades. In these regions, the katar is a profound symbol, where in Kathiwar and the Kattee people swear oaths and agreements on its blade. In Pant, there is mention of a katar with curved blade in the Prince of Wales Museum in Bombay (p.170) and it is stated of 17th century and Maratha, curiously noting it is thickened at the tip, which seems atypical with the known use of slashing cuts employed by them. Perhaps a suggestion that the katar may have developed in the north in Rajput regions as often suggested? However, it should be noted that Pant often seems quite liberal in his assignment of period, and items referenced from many museums are from provenances that seem, in my opinion, seriously clouded. Pant also cites a curved blade example of late 17th century from Delhi (p.170, fig. 527) with a blade recurved in 'bichwa' form. It is important to note that in Pant, the katar is referred to by the apparantly proper term, 'jamadhar' which is the word describing this weapon in Indian language. The katar term is believed to have become misapplied in the Egerton work, and became a collectors reference to the transverse hilt 'punch daggers'. It is so soundly entrenched as the descriptive term in place, it would only be counterproductive and confusing to try to correct this error at this point. With this overview, I have added simply for the benefit of general readers and those not already familiar with all of this information, I think it would be interesting to continue the discussion of the query Kukulz has posed. Although there are seemingly few examples of curved bladed katars, what would compel the choice of these blades? We know that the manner of use may be of course, the key factor, and that most katars familiar to us are the northern versions with reinforced armour piercing tip. We also know that the bichwa daggers with recurved blades were a popularly chosen form, and perhaps if I recall, somewhat regional. Possibly regions favoring the bichwa may be of some association to curved blade katars? I do hope others out there will join in with thier ideas, as I think Kukulz has presented a most astutely observed question, and this is our opportunity to learn more on these familiar, yet apparantly under researched weapons. All very best regards, Jim

28th August 2009, 08:01 AM	#5
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Jens Nordlunde seemed to have touched on a very similar theme in this old thread.

4th January 2010, 06:03 AM	#6
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I'm not sure if it's "OK" to resurrect this thread, about 8 months since it's start... but I thought this would interest some people. I did not have a good clear photo of a Kerala-katar used in Kalaripayattu, and I don't think many outside of Kerala and Kalaripayattu training know much about it specifically... link the Kerala-katar Photo edited to be "right-side up" Found this guy while looking up Taiwanese aboriginal knives and Native American quivers in the database. Good enough example? Any interest for discussion? Could this Kerala / Kalaripayattu style katar simply be a martial arts specialization weapon? Some martial arts have a specialized weapon that their art is often known by... or a master fighter had taken a common or uncommon weapon and further modified it and developed further techniques for it that is carried down in his fighting art.