TALISMANIC KERIS?

VVV · 13th July 2009, 09:11 PM

We seem to still disagree on how far you can stretch an explanation, like Webster 2, to give it another meaning.
The main purpose of an offering is to bribe, pay tribute or make the "spiritual matters" indebted to you (compare the Roman principle of do ut des).
It´s the reciever of the offering that maybe will produce magical and miraculous effects, not the object, by itself, that is being offered.

Source: One of the greatest researchers on magic etc., Marcel Mauss, covers sacrifice, reciprocity etc. in his classic book The Gift or even more specifically in Sacrifice : Its Nature and Function (written together with Henri Hubert).

Michael

PS Mauss´s student Jeanne Cuisinier specialised in Malay Magic etc. If you read French her books are IMHO even better than those of Skeat and Gimlette and at similar level as Winstedt and Annandale when it comes to this topic.

David · 14th July 2009, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

It´s the reciever of the offering that maybe will produce magical and miraculous effects, not the object, by itself, that is being offered.

While i would not aggressively argue with this there are many who would no doubt argue that the "magick" or "miracle" is more a product of the mind of the offering giver him/herself. Certainly there is importance and indeed power intrinsic to objects that are spiritually offered, some more than others and i feel it is no stretch at all to attribute a bit of "magick" to these offered objects themselves.
While i do spend some time researching magick from a anthropologic/sociologic viewpoint i have spent much more of my energies over the past 30 years in the actual practice of magick and frankly, for me, in that context, giver, gift and deity are all one.

Unfortunately i do not read French or i would most certainly check out these books.

Still this brings us, as always it must on this forum, back to keris. Again i must point out that the objects that we refer to as keris sajen were obviously not always meant to be an offering or we would not have all these fine examples in our collections. They would all be buried in the fields where they were offered. It seems obvious to me at least that a great number of these keris were intended to be kept for talismanic purposes. Perhaps this means that the name is "wrong". This is the trouble with the name game. It goes 'round and 'round and 'round. But this is the name we seem to identify with this form today. Yesterday perhaps, we called them keris Majapahit. Tomorrow there may indeed be a consensus to call them something else. Still, i see no problem personally in referring to this form as a "talismanic keris" as i did previously in this thread.

Alam Shah · 14th July 2009, 01:35 AM

Hi all,
I have a question..

Which event started first, the keris as a ceremonial/talismanic item (keris sajen) then evolved into a weapon OR evolved as a weapon first, then a variant for talismanic use comes later?

ganjawulung · 14th July 2009, 01:42 AM

Dear David and Michael,

Interesting discussion. I can only suggest you to look at this cultural anthropologist who had spent much time in studying 'cultural belief' in Thailand and Indonesia -- especially 'Javanese Belief'. He is dutch born anthropologist Niels Mulder. (His books: "Mysticism & Everyday Life in Contemporary Java: Cultural Persistence and Change" -- Singapore University Press, 1978 and also his interesting work, "Mysticism in Java: Ideology in Indonesia" -- Pepin Press, Amsterdam). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javanese_beliefs

Then you may see the trace of Javanese past -- the trace of "javanese mysticism" in (Indonesia) contemporary life. Mysticism is still seen until today in Indonesian life, although they have adopted Islamism for their formal belief..

A daily ritual in Java until now, as "Slametan" for instance, is still practiced among the javanese moslem until today. Pls see this http://www.songofsnow.com/Mysticism-...-p/mysjava.htm

Niels Mulder had spent a couple of years in studying this Javanese belief

GANJAWULUNG

David · 14th July 2009, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear David and Michael,

Interesting discussion. I can only suggest you to look at this cultural anthropologist who had spent much time in studying 'cultural belief' in Thailand and Indonesia -- especially 'Javanese Belief'. He is dutch born anthropologist Niels Mulder. (His books: "Mysticism & Everyday Life in Contemporary Java: Cultural Persistence and Change" -- Singapore University Press, 1978 and also his interesting work, "Mysticism in Java: Ideology in Indonesia" -- Pepin Press, Amsterdam). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javanese_beliefs

Then you may see the trace of Javanese past -- the trace of "javanese mysticism" in (Indonesia) contemporary life. Mysticism is still seen until today in Indonesian life, although they have adopted Islamism for their formal belief..

A daily ritual in Java until now, as "Slametan" for instance, is still practiced among the javanese moslem until today. Pls see this http://www.songofsnow.com/Mysticism-...-p/mysjava.htm

Niels Mulder had spent a couple of years in studying this Javanese belief

GANJAWULUNG

Thanks Ganja, i have and have read Mulder's Mysticism in Java: Ideology in Indonesia. I found it a very interesting read.

Montino Bourbon · 14th July 2009, 07:40 AM

Got this one from an aquaintance in Bali. I would love to hear your opinions.

Blade length 27 cm

total length 38.5 cm

VVV · 14th July 2009, 04:54 PM

Thanks Ganja,

I have also read Mulder´s book on Mysticism. Another of my favourites are Koentjaraningrat´s Javanese Culture.
Enough with words and back to the function of this keris.
I suspect the clue is that earth spirits are afraid of iron and people are afraid of earth spirits.
So if you want to protect yourself against earth spirits it´s good to have a piece of iron on you or next to the object, like a rice-field, you want to protect...

Michael

ganjawulung · 16th July 2009, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

I have also read Mulder´s book on Mysticism. Another of my favourites are Koentjaraningrat´s Javanese Culture.
Enough with words and back to the function of this keris.
I suspect the clue is that earth spirits are afraid of iron and people are afraid of earth spirits.
So if you want to protect yourself against earth spirits it´s good to have a piece of iron on you or next to the object, like a rice-field, you want to protect...

Yes, it is an interesting book. And I think, it is a need too, to search more 'spiritual meaning' of keris world, not only from function. But also from "words"...

Searching "words" on mysticism, for instance. It will enrich your knowledge on keris. As Mulder said in his book ... "mysticism has occupied a place of pride in Javanese culture for a very long time..."

Event with the advent of Islam and its social organization, in Indonesia -- according to Niels Mulder -- mysticism in Java have changed, adapting themselves to and being shaped by new circumstances...

"Slametan", for instance or as Alan just said in the previous post on "bersih desa" ritual, may be it could be explain a little bit -- why in the past Javanese used to give "offering" to the mother nature...

"Slametan" -- according to Mulder -- is a core ritual to sustain, maintain, or promote order. A communal religious meal in which neighbours plus some relatives and friends participate. Slametan demonstrate the desire to be safe in an unruly world...

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 14th July 2009, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

Got this one from an aquaintance in Bali. I would love to hear your opinions.

Blade length 27 cm

total length 38.5 cm

The hilt -- although quite rough -- is typically old eastern Jawa style. Also the warangka, eastern Jawa -- almost similar with Solonese gayaman, but usually without pendhok...

A straight "puthut kembar" (twin priest) keris...

GANJAWULUNG

lemmythesmith · 14th July 2009, 08:27 PM

Hi all, here's my talismanic keris, blade is 139mm long with a slot cut through the blade. When I bought it I was told the slot was for poison

in the bottom half of the slot there is a colourless residue which I have left well alone! Does anyone know any significance to the stripe down the sheath? It has been carefully shaped to ensure the stripe in the middle. The blade also appears to have a very stylised "putut" too.

mykeris · 15th July 2012, 02:43 PM

Mine is made of copper recenlty acquired, I do not know whether 'material-copper' is good for Jimat (Talasmanic). Length 25cm in sheath. I wouldn't know whether is new or old because many Javanese old fake kerises in the market. No talasmanic-waves transmitted yet because the keris is just on its way to my home.he he he..hopefully it turns out to be something nice.

SHARING A METHOD: ACTIVATING MYSTICAL PROPERTIES OF NON-ACTIVE KERISES: : Put your keris on top of a white bowl containing water, get a 15 inch Magnifying Glass and place it on top of your Keris during a Full Moon night. Let the moon shine on your keris untill it moves away. If you don't get immediate result, do it a few times during a full moon night. Gud Luck.

mykeris · 16th July 2012, 11:47 PM

No moderators...? Thanks..mykeris

A. G. Maisey · 14th July 2009, 02:03 AM

I like words, and I like the way in which words develop, both in form and in meaning.

However, the words from which the English language is constructed can vary in meaning, and in shades of meaning, dependent upon the form of the English language being used.

David has given us an interpretation of the word "talisman" that I am sure his quoted reference will support.

Michael has approached the subject from a slightly different direction, and has provided a slightly different interpretation that I am once again certain his references could support.

Since we are involved in discussion here in an international forum, where for most of those of us who are native English speakers, it is certain that we do not use Standard English as our everyday vehicle of communication, and for those of us who are not native English speakers, the English that we use is in the category of English as a second language, I suggest that perhaps we should use as our reference the one inarguable authority on the words which comprise the English language, and that authority is the Oxford Dictionary.

My personal favourite of the many editions of Oxford is the Oxford on Historical Principles.

If I consult Oxford H.P. in respect of "talisman", I find that development is from late Greek :- telos>telein>telesma >> Arab tilasm ( also tilsam).

telos = result, end; telein = complete, performance; telesma = completion, performance, religious rite, consecrated object.

The first recorded use of the word "talisman" in the English Language appears to have been in 1638.

Used in a formal fashion the word talisman has the meaning:-

" a stone, ring, or other object engraven with figures or characters, to which are attributed the occult powers of the planetary influences and celestial configurations under which it was made; usually worn as an amulet to avert evil from or bring fortune to the wearer; also used medicinally to impart healing virtue; hence, any object held to be endowed with magic virtue; a charm."

When the word "talisman" is used in a figurative way it means:-

"anything that acts as a charm or by which extraordinary results are achieved"; this usage dates from 1784.

From this it can be seen that when we refer to a keris sajen as a talisman, we are referring to the virtue which we believe to be inherrent in the keris. We are not referring to the original purpose for which this keris was concieved.

In fact, even this "original purpose" could be subject to debate, for, even though the accepted name for these small keris with an integrally forged hilt, is "keris sajen", it is open to question whether all keris of this type were originally fabricated for use as a part of an offering.

I have seen it mentioned that in colonial days people in Java carried small keris as amulets, see van Duuren

Additionally a number of this type of keris that I have in my own collection I believe to have been made specifically for talismanic purposes, rather than offering purposes. The reason I believe this is because some of the very old examples have been provided with suspension rings, and some of the more recent --- perhaps 18th-19th century --- ones have been made in a non-typical form and with considerable attention to artistic detail.

Further, although we read in several sources --- which could all originate from the same root --- that these keris are offering keris, and that they are used principally in the ceremony of Bersih Desa, the two references I have that set forth the ritual for Bersih Desa make no mention of a keris of any type having any part in the ceremony. In addition to this printed evidence I have been advised by a person who was responsible for the organisation of ceremonies such as Bersih Desa that no keris is used in Bersih Desa in his village.

Possibly these keris sajen were used in some places as a part of the ceremony, and not used in other places. Or possibly what we have is a misnomer. I have no firm opinion in this matter.

We can play the semantics game till the cows come home, if we wish, and I'm probably as partial as anyone to this game, but when we get right down to tin tacks there can be no argument about the fact that the type of keris that we know as "keris sajen" is considered to be a talismanic keris by the Javanese people. Since this object is a part of Javanese culture, the important thing here is how the members of that culture regard it, not how members of different cultures might like to regard it.

For those who have not yet seen this, here are few keris sajen:-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerissajen.html

A. G. Maisey · 14th July 2009, 02:17 AM

That's a good question Alam Shah, and it deserves a far better answer than can be given in the context of a discussion group in an online forum.

My view of this matter, shortened and simplified to a digestable form and length is that there is evidence for the keris as a weapon prior to any evidence existing for the keris as a talisman, or indeed, the keris in its developed esoteric persona.

Logical argument can be constructed to support the keris as weapon prior to the keris as talisman, and this argument can stand independent of any physical evidence.

14th July 2009, 01:35 AM	#3
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Question Hi all, I have a question.. Which event started first, the keris as a ceremonial/talismanic item (keris sajen) then evolved into a weapon OR evolved as a weapon first, then a variant for talismanic use comes later? Last edited by Alam Shah; 14th July 2009 at 01:58 AM.

14th July 2009, 01:42 AM	#4
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	NIELS MULDER Dear David and Michael, Interesting discussion. I can only suggest you to look at this cultural anthropologist who had spent much time in studying 'cultural belief' in Thailand and Indonesia -- especially 'Javanese Belief'. He is dutch born anthropologist Niels Mulder. (His books: "Mysticism & Everyday Life in Contemporary Java: Cultural Persistence and Change" -- Singapore University Press, 1978 and also his interesting work, "Mysticism in Java: Ideology in Indonesia" -- Pepin Press, Amsterdam). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javanese_beliefs Then you may see the trace of Javanese past -- the trace of "javanese mysticism" in (Indonesia) contemporary life. Mysticism is still seen until today in Indonesian life, although they have adopted Islamism for their formal belief.. A daily ritual in Java until now, as "Slametan" for instance, is still practiced among the javanese moslem until today. Pls see this http://www.songofsnow.com/Mysticism-...-p/mysjava.htm Niels Mulder had spent a couple of years in studying this Javanese belief GANJAWULUNG

14th July 2009, 07:40 AM	#6
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Here's my 'talismanic keris' Got this one from an aquaintance in Bali. I would love to hear your opinions. Blade length 27 cm total length 38.5 cm Attached Images Last edited by Montino Bourbon; 14th July 2009 at 07:44 AM. Reason: measure

14th July 2009, 08:27 PM	#10
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi all, here's my talismanic keris, blade is 139mm long with a slot cut through the blade. When I bought it I was told the slot was for poison in the bottom half of the slot there is a colourless residue which I have left well alone! Does anyone know any significance to the stripe down the sheath? It has been carefully shaped to ensure the stripe in the middle. The blade also appears to have a very stylised "putut" too. Attached Images

15th July 2012, 02:43 PM	#11
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	Very Interesting Thread! 'TALASMANIC KERISes'! Mine is made of copper recenlty acquired, I do not know whether 'material-copper' is good for Jimat (Talasmanic). Length 25cm in sheath. I wouldn't know whether is new or old because many Javanese old fake kerises in the market. No talasmanic-waves transmitted yet because the keris is just on its way to my home.he he he..hopefully it turns out to be something nice. SHARING A METHOD: ACTIVATING MYSTICAL PROPERTIES OF NON-ACTIVE KERISES: : Put your keris on top of a white bowl containing water, get a 15 inch Magnifying Glass and place it on top of your Keris during a Full Moon night. Let the moon shine on your keris untill it moves away. If you don't get immediate result, do it a few times during a full moon night. Gud Luck. Attached Images Last edited by mykeris; 16th July 2012 at 02:01 AM.

13th July 2009, 09:11 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	We seem to still disagree on how far you can stretch an explanation, like Webster 2, to give it another meaning. The main purpose of an offering is to bribe, pay tribute or make the "spiritual matters" indebted to you (compare the Roman principle of do ut des). It´s the reciever of the offering that maybe will produce magical and miraculous effects, not the object, by itself, that is being offered. Source: One of the greatest researchers on magic etc., Marcel Mauss, covers sacrifice, reciprocity etc. in his classic book The Gift or even more specifically in Sacrifice : Its Nature and Function (written together with Henri Hubert). Michael PS Mauss´s student Jeanne Cuisinier specialised in Malay Magic etc. If you read French her books are IMHO even better than those of Skeat and Gimlette and at similar level as Winstedt and Annandale when it comes to this topic.

14th July 2009, 04:54 PM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Ganja, I have also read Mulder´s book on Mysticism. Another of my favourites are Koentjaraningrat´s Javanese Culture. Enough with words and back to the function of this keris. I suspect the clue is that earth spirits are afraid of iron and people are afraid of earth spirits. So if you want to protect yourself against earth spirits it´s good to have a piece of iron on you or next to the object, like a rice-field, you want to protect... Michael

16th July 2012, 11:47 PM	#12
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	Lee Jones: Is this thread closed? No moderators...? Thanks..mykeris

14th July 2009, 02:03 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I like words, and I like the way in which words develop, both in form and in meaning. However, the words from which the English language is constructed can vary in meaning, and in shades of meaning, dependent upon the form of the English language being used. David has given us an interpretation of the word "talisman" that I am sure his quoted reference will support. Michael has approached the subject from a slightly different direction, and has provided a slightly different interpretation that I am once again certain his references could support. Since we are involved in discussion here in an international forum, where for most of those of us who are native English speakers, it is certain that we do not use Standard English as our everyday vehicle of communication, and for those of us who are not native English speakers, the English that we use is in the category of English as a second language, I suggest that perhaps we should use as our reference the one inarguable authority on the words which comprise the English language, and that authority is the Oxford Dictionary. My personal favourite of the many editions of Oxford is the Oxford on Historical Principles. If I consult Oxford H.P. in respect of "talisman", I find that development is from late Greek :- telos>telein>telesma >> Arab tilasm ( also tilsam). telos = result, end; telein = complete, performance; telesma = completion, performance, religious rite, consecrated object. The first recorded use of the word "talisman" in the English Language appears to have been in 1638. Used in a formal fashion the word talisman has the meaning:- " a stone, ring, or other object engraven with figures or characters, to which are attributed the occult powers of the planetary influences and celestial configurations under which it was made; usually worn as an amulet to avert evil from or bring fortune to the wearer; also used medicinally to impart healing virtue; hence, any object held to be endowed with magic virtue; a charm." When the word "talisman" is used in a figurative way it means:- "anything that acts as a charm or by which extraordinary results are achieved"; this usage dates from 1784. From this it can be seen that when we refer to a keris sajen as a talisman, we are referring to the virtue which we believe to be inherrent in the keris. We are not referring to the original purpose for which this keris was concieved. In fact, even this "original purpose" could be subject to debate, for, even though the accepted name for these small keris with an integrally forged hilt, is "keris sajen", it is open to question whether all keris of this type were originally fabricated for use as a part of an offering. I have seen it mentioned that in colonial days people in Java carried small keris as amulets, see van Duuren Additionally a number of this type of keris that I have in my own collection I believe to have been made specifically for talismanic purposes, rather than offering purposes. The reason I believe this is because some of the very old examples have been provided with suspension rings, and some of the more recent --- perhaps 18th-19th century --- ones have been made in a non-typical form and with considerable attention to artistic detail. Further, although we read in several sources --- which could all originate from the same root --- that these keris are offering keris, and that they are used principally in the ceremony of Bersih Desa, the two references I have that set forth the ritual for Bersih Desa make no mention of a keris of any type having any part in the ceremony. In addition to this printed evidence I have been advised by a person who was responsible for the organisation of ceremonies such as Bersih Desa that no keris is used in Bersih Desa in his village. Possibly these keris sajen were used in some places as a part of the ceremony, and not used in other places. Or possibly what we have is a misnomer. I have no firm opinion in this matter. We can play the semantics game till the cows come home, if we wish, and I'm probably as partial as anyone to this game, but when we get right down to tin tacks there can be no argument about the fact that the type of keris that we know as "keris sajen" is considered to be a talismanic keris by the Javanese people. Since this object is a part of Javanese culture, the important thing here is how the members of that culture regard it, not how members of different cultures might like to regard it. For those who have not yet seen this, here are few keris sajen:- http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerissajen.html

14th July 2009, 02:17 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	That's a good question Alam Shah, and it deserves a far better answer than can be given in the context of a discussion group in an online forum. My view of this matter, shortened and simplified to a digestable form and length is that there is evidence for the keris as a weapon prior to any evidence existing for the keris as a talisman, or indeed, the keris in its developed esoteric persona. Logical argument can be constructed to support the keris as weapon prior to the keris as talisman, and this argument can stand independent of any physical evidence.