Guess this Indian sword

[Rick]

I'll start a new thread on the kirach , just to avoid general confusion over Indian sword types .

Yeah , I thought it might be Sikh too .

Coming soon .

[tom hyle]

OK you put it in an envelope, and I'll get my turban
In another stage-magic related matter, did Rick do the disapearing sword trick, or is the computer quicker than the eye (slower than the patience?)? What kirach? I wanna see a kirach

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you Jim for the kind words, but don’t overdo it, or I may end believing in it, and self-delusion is something, which one should avoid.

Jeff, I think you are right, so maybe they skipped proof reading the catalogue, which is a sin, not easily forgiven.

RobT, these tulwar/basket hilts are seen, although not very often, and as Ian writes, they disappeared at one point – only I don’t know when, but I think it must have been early 19th century.
I think the answer to the hilt question must be yes, but I would not be surprised if one was found with another hilt type, as many swords were ‘modified’. Yes it is a Muslim weapon, but could no doubt have been used in other places, as looted weapons were used again, sometimes unchanged, and sometimes rehilted. I don’t know what Sailaba means, but the sword type is from Turkey as you can see below, so the word is maybe Turkish but it could also be Indian. The T spine is an interesting question, and you are right that it mostly is associated with the north, but you must also remember that Turkey fought many wars in the north and traded, by the sea, with south India.
Notice tah the same sword can have different names in the north and in the south, although they mostly are called the same.


The text below is from the homepage of The National Museum, New Delhi, and by using the link you can read more about Indian weapons.

With the establishment of Sultanate and later the Mughal rule in India, the weapon underwent a significant change and we see some unique weapons introduced during the period. The Persian sword Shamsheer, the Arabian Zulfiqar and the Turkish Sailaba also appeared on the scene alongwith the indigenous weapons.

http://www.nationalmuseumindia.org/armour.html

[Oriental-Arms]

Few comments if I may:

We came across several similar swords. See for example:



I purchased the upper sword in Udaipur, Rajhastan. The dealer that sold it to us called it Sousson pata (which I agreed) and told us that it is from Rajhastan. The lower one was purchased in the U.S. Its scabbard is now in restoration but please notice the similarities of the fittings to the one shown by Jens, especially the scabbard tip. Both have the Islamic style handle, and both are richly decorated with gold and silver inlay (so I believe is the sword from the Hyderabad museum but it is difficult to see). Both swords has a strong T spine, very similar to Yataghan blades in shape and dimensions, and both have a short ricasso which ones never find on a Turkish Yataghan.



Both blades are forged from high quality wootz steel:





A third similar sword I believe is with Dr. Lee Jones, and I hope Lee can post few photos. This one is of particular interest as the blade is forged from pattern welded steel in the structure known as Turkish Ribbon. It is composed of several strips of twisted steel bars (Turkish stars) forged welded together. We have seen twisted steel on many swords, from Europe to Indonesia. But Turkish Ribbon was so popular on Ottoman swords from the late 17 to the early 19 C. and it is so typical that it is almost screaming I was made in Turkey . What is more interesting about Lee’s sword is that it also has a Ricasso, and the blade is gold inlaid with Indian style decoration.

All this strengthen the Turkish connection. I am almost sure that Lee’s sword was made in Turkey for the Indian market. (Lee, few photos please…)

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Jens, maybe we should revise the dictionaries , I wouldve gone for the sossun pata but you preffer "sailaba" ... I remember the time before this it was the "khurasani" ...
What exactly makes a "sailaba" a "sailaba" and not a "sossun pata" ?

[Jens Nordlunde]

I dunno, maybe sailaba is a Turkish word, maybe the name for it in south India or maybe it has something to do with the T spine – I really don’t know. Sailaba was what they called it in the catalogue. Maybe Artzi knows, although he did not comment on the name. Someone wrote to me recently and said that he did not care much for all these fancy names, he would call it a sossun pata, then people knew what he was talking about – maybe we should too, but remembering that the different swords can have different names in the different parts of India.

Btw in Sind it means flooding the fields.


I see you have changed your hairstyle, your hair is longer.

[Oriental-Arms]

Regarding the names, it is of no importance what Jens calls it or me or any other collector calls it. What matters is what were the original owners calling it. And Jens is absolutely correct. It could have a different name in different parts of India. My intuition is that the name Sailaba somehow comes from Turkey, which strengthen the Turkish connection of these beautiful and interesting swords.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I dunno, maybe sailaba is a Turkish word, maybe the name for it in south India or maybe it has something to do with the T spine – I really don’t know. Sailaba was what they called it in the catalogue. Maybe Artzi knows, although he did not comment on the name. Someone wrote to me recently and said that he did not care much for all these fancy names, he would call it a sossun pata, then people knew what he was talking about – maybe we should too, but remembering that the different swords can have different names in the different parts of India.

Btw in Sind it means flooding the fields.


I see you have changed your hairstyle, your hair is longer.

Yes, Jens' guess is as good as ever.
Sailaba is not exactly a Turkish word, but a Turkic one. Turkic people ( Kazakh, South Siberian) had short swords called Selebe or Selava. Their migration to Afghanistan gave name of Selaavah to what we call Khyber Knife, and to Deccan,- sailaba.
Here is a schematic drawing of the Kazakh " selebe" by a brilliant Kazakh ethographer Jokan Valikhanov ( sp.) , 19th century

Russian army adopted this short sword ( saber) for unter-officers , called them Suleba.