gold hilt

kronckew · 11th July 2009, 06:51 PM

cinnabar is a blood red mineral that carves well and is used in conjunction with gold to produce jewellery.

could this be a gold cover on a cinnabar stone core? any red bits showing on th other side perhaps? i find it hard to believe they'd make that of solid gold. aside from the expense it'd make the keris quite heavy to carry if it were and the balance would be terrible.

or more regionally correct an indonesian talisman container made of gold, silver and cinnabar

you can just make out the dark red-brown stone behind the gold scrollwork.

Linky it's actually from the same site as the hilt.

another indonesian item from the same site. cinnabar more obvious. moluccan

buginese disks, gold alloy filligree over cinnabar, islamic

David · 11th July 2009, 08:57 PM

Ah, thanks, i didn't realize they used it this way. The hilt most probably is not solid gold, though if it were it would be a matter of status and not a fighting blade so balance would not be an issue.
I think it is fairly clear though that the gold is overlaid on something for this hilt. I would imagine if it is cinnabar that it was a mighty big chunk and is probably pretty heavy as well.

kronckew · 11th July 2009, 09:08 PM

cinnabar is also known as vermillion, and was used in chinese medicines to increase life, the first emperor was given mercury derived from cinnabar to make him immortal. it didn't work. he died insane from mercury pison apparently, and would have lived a lot longer without it...

heated it gives off sulphur dioxide when it does start to decompose, at that is highly toxic and the level at which it kills is undetectable to the human nose (ie. by the time it's strong enough for you to smell it, it's too late, you're dead already). in lower concenrations it is very irtritating to the lungs as in contact with moisture it turns to sulphuric acid.

Rick · 11th July 2009, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

cinnabar is also known as vermillion, and was used in chinese medicines to increase life, the first emperor was given mercury derived from cinnabar to make him immortal. it didn't work. he died insane from mercury pison apparently, and would have lived a lot longer without it...

heated it gives off sulphur dioxide when it does start to decompose, at that is highly toxic and the level at which it kills is undetectable to the human nose (ie. by the time it's strong enough for you to smell it, it's too late, you're dead already). in lower concenrations it is very irtritating to the lungs as in contact with moisture it turns to sulphuric acid.

Fascinating !
I wonder if it was ever used as a poison .
Sprinkle a little in the king's bedtime incense or something like that .

kronckew · 11th July 2009, 11:25 PM

ingesting it certainly didn't do the emperor any good

wasn't all that fast acting tho.

if you want to poison someone, there are much quicker options. might be useful if you want to see them suffer for a long while before they die.

sprinking it on their charcoal heating burner might produce enough gas to irritate him, but it's take a much more substantial amount to kill*. or a small amt. in a small space... a charcoal burner itself can give off carbon monoxide, a more subtle killer. and one used to good effect by assassins in rome & other cultures on occasion. it would be easy enough to restrict the oxygen supply to the burner to produce the CO. just cut down on the room ventilation.

my favourite at the moment is the so. american golden poison frog

this little (5cm/2 in.) fellow has enough poison to kill 20 men. dogs have died from touching a paper towel a frog had walked across. darts dipped in it's poison stay lethal for over two years....

*- i've heard of men who climbed down into a pump room on an oil tanker where so2 had accumulated from high sulphur crude oil pump leaks, and died. their shipmate who went looking for them saw them collapsed on the deck & went down to rescue him, and died, the shipmate who went looking for the second also went down and died. after 5 they finally caught on, wore breathing apparatus to go down and collect the remains, and fans to ventilate the space. designs changed after that...

karset · 12th July 2009, 04:14 AM

wow,,,thanks kronckew.
a years ago i still thinking they use "jabung" ( mix of coal tar and teracota dust
) only.

A. G. Maisey · 12th July 2009, 02:43 PM

This gold hilt is in the Asian collection of the Australian National Gallery.

It is identified as from Sunda, and as the hilt of a keris.

Additionally one of the materials used in its construction has been named as cinnabar.

There are several things that I find strange in this attribution and description.

The major question for me is how cinnabar was used in its construction.

This type of hilt is typical of a Javanese pedang, not a keris, and the way in which it is made is by embossing the motif into a shell of metal, which is then joined and chased, and filled with either a shellac mixture or a mixture that includes damar, a natural resin.

I cannot understand how cinnabar enters the equation.

I have noted erroneous descriptions of Javanese objects in Australian collections and exhibitions in the past, some that were really ludicrous. I suggest that perhaps the description of this hilt might be taken with caution until a confirmation can be obtained.

11th July 2009, 06:51 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	cinnabar is a blood red mineral that carves well and is used in conjunction with gold to produce jewellery. could this be a gold cover on a cinnabar stone core? any red bits showing on th other side perhaps? i find it hard to believe they'd make that of solid gold. aside from the expense it'd make the keris quite heavy to carry if it were and the balance would be terrible. or more regionally correct an indonesian talisman container made of gold, silver and cinnabar you can just make out the dark red-brown stone behind the gold scrollwork. Linky it's actually from the same site as the hilt. another indonesian item from the same site. cinnabar more obvious. moluccan buginese disks, gold alloy filligree over cinnabar, islamic Last edited by kronckew; 11th July 2009 at 07:17 PM.

11th July 2009, 09:08 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	cinnabar is also known as vermillion, and was used in chinese medicines to increase life, the first emperor was given mercury derived from cinnabar to make him immortal. it didn't work. he died insane from mercury pison apparently, and would have lived a lot longer without it... heated it gives off sulphur dioxide when it does start to decompose, at that is highly toxic and the level at which it kills is undetectable to the human nose (ie. by the time it's strong enough for you to smell it, it's too late, you're dead already). in lower concenrations it is very irtritating to the lungs as in contact with moisture it turns to sulphuric acid. Last edited by kronckew; 11th July 2009 at 09:43 PM.

11th July 2009, 11:25 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	ingesting it certainly didn't do the emperor any good wasn't all that fast acting tho. if you want to poison someone, there are much quicker options. might be useful if you want to see them suffer for a long while before they die. sprinking it on their charcoal heating burner might produce enough gas to irritate him, but it's take a much more substantial amount to kill. or a small amt. in a small space... a charcoal burner itself can give off carbon monoxide, a more subtle killer. and one used to good effect by assassins in rome & other cultures on occasion. it would be easy enough to restrict the oxygen supply to the burner to produce the CO. just cut down on the room ventilation. my favourite at the moment is the so. american golden poison frog this little (5cm/2 in.) fellow has enough poison to kill 20 men. dogs have died from touching a paper towel a frog had walked across. darts dipped in it's poison stay lethal for over two years.... - i've heard of men who climbed down into a pump room on an oil tanker where so2 had accumulated from high sulphur crude oil pump leaks, and died. their shipmate who went looking for them saw them collapsed on the deck & went down to rescue him, and died, the shipmate who went looking for the second also went down and died. after 5 they finally caught on, wore breathing apparatus to go down and collect the remains, and fans to ventilate the space. designs changed after that... Last edited by kronckew; 11th July 2009 at 11:48 PM.

12th July 2009, 02:43 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	This gold hilt is in the Asian collection of the Australian National Gallery. It is identified as from Sunda, and as the hilt of a keris. Additionally one of the materials used in its construction has been named as cinnabar. There are several things that I find strange in this attribution and description. The major question for me is how cinnabar was used in its construction. This type of hilt is typical of a Javanese pedang, not a keris, and the way in which it is made is by embossing the motif into a shell of metal, which is then joined and chased, and filled with either a shellac mixture or a mixture that includes damar, a natural resin. I cannot understand how cinnabar enters the equation. I have noted erroneous descriptions of Javanese objects in Australian collections and exhibitions in the past, some that were really ludicrous. I suggest that perhaps the description of this hilt might be taken with caution until a confirmation can be obtained. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 12th July 2009 at 11:18 PM.

11th July 2009, 08:57 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Ah, thanks, i didn't realize they used it this way. The hilt most probably is not solid gold, though if it were it would be a matter of status and not a fighting blade so balance would not be an issue. I think it is fairly clear though that the gold is overlaid on something for this hilt. I would imagine if it is cinnabar that it was a mighty big chunk and is probably pretty heavy as well.

12th July 2009, 04:14 AM	#6
karset Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 48	wow,,,thanks kronckew. a years ago i still thinking they use "jabung" ( mix of coal tar and teracota dust ) only.