Help Sword info required

Norman McCormick · 1st July 2009, 02:54 PM

Hi,
Dragoons would probably be Heavy Cavalry at this time so the 1796 Pattern H.C. Troopers sword and the H.C. Officers version although I think there is a dress and undress version of the officers type.
I don't think the 53rd were designated as Grenadiers until later so if that is correct I would think the officers would have the 1796 Pattern Infantry Officers model and some may have used the 1803 Pattern Flank Officers sword, I don't think the men would have swords en masse but N.C.O's may have had a sword/sidearm.
As to the Bengal Army, I would assume the British Officers would carry the appropriate Infantry/Cavalry sword but I'm sure individual exceptions would have been reasonably common throughout the British Army of India. Hope this is of some use.
Regards,
Norman.

sirupate · 1st July 2009, 03:37 PM

Superb Norman, it is indeed very helpfull, as I have been re-searching the Anglo Nepali war, and come across a couple of occasions of Gurkha commanders seeking out British Officers and basically having a duel with them. The Gurkha commanders being described as using sabre, so they were probably using either a Tulwar or Shamshir type blade.
In another recorded incident the Royal Irish Dragoons over extended themselves, and in the Gorkha counter attack they had real problems dealing with the shield and khukuri combined, with their swords.
So I was very keen to fnd out what the British forces were using on those occasions.

Many thanks Simon

Jim McDougall · 1st July 2009, 06:54 PM

What a fascinating topic Simon! and I hope you'll keep us posted on your findings..in addition to hopefully others will join in on the research and share the information here.

Norman has as always, offered sound insight into the most plausibly present edged weapons during this period. I think his note on the use of the M1803 flank company officers sabre for the 53rd would be most likely. The officers in India were much more inclined toward sabres in the Raj, and the M1796 infantry officers sword was already wrought with disdain from the officers who used in in the Peninsula.
Dragoons indeed did use the heavy cavalry M1796 swords, and there were undress patterns for officers which if I recall had a pierced bowl type guard, something called a 'honeysuckle' pattern (?) I need to look this up, its been a very long time! I think the data is in 'Robson'.

Tulwars were of course well known in Nepal, and I would be reasonably certain the Gurkhas would have had them, especially officers or leaders.
The heavy cavalry M1796 patterns were terribly cumbersome, and definitely ill suited in combat against fast moving Gurkhas with kukris!! These swords were huge, unwieldy, and if I recall Robsons words correctly, one of the worst swords ever inflicted on the British army....not exactly a stellar review.
I still like them, incredible history!!! but for combat, especially in these circumstances....not good.

Now, the best topic of all, swords used by British officers of the Bengal Army.
In these times, British officers had already enjoyed extreme latitude in thier fashions including of course, weapons. While in most cases, many of the more rigidly regimented officers would have likely carried the patterns of sword typically in place at the time by regulation. However, in these times, the flamboyance of many officers led to the use of fascinating hybrid forms and native style weapons.
I have seen many tulwars carrying M1796 officers blades, and while it is often presumed these were captured blades used by Indian forces, the converse may be true, an officer mounting his blade in a local style hilt.
Of course, speculation, but as the Raj progessed, British officers adopted Indian fashion widely, leading to the colorful pageantry of the Native Indian regiments....Bengal Lancers et al!!

I look forward to progress with this topic Simon!!!

All the best,
Jim

sirupate · 2nd July 2009, 12:02 PM

Many thanks for your input Jim, the current re-search all came about from the previous discussion about Khuda/Khunda.
Tulwar seemed to be the main type of sword in that period in Nepal, and with the higher ranked Rajput Nepali there was the occasional Shamshir, obviously other types were in use as well.
The problem the Dragoons seemd to have was the Goorkhas ability with the shield to deflect their swords, and the Gurkhas then closing the gap and either cutting them or stabbing them. The Dragoons quickly retreated, expecting support by the Sepoys of the 1/6th, they saw what was happening and ran as well, there ended up being 151 casualties, of which twelve died of their wounds or were killed outright.
That is very interesting what you say about the hilts, and it wouldn't surprise me if an eccentric BO did just that!
I must now go and find some 1796 heavy cavalry swords to see how they perform, I am hoping a local collector I know has a couple.

Thanks for all you help, cheers Simon

1st July 2009, 02:54 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, Dragoons would probably be Heavy Cavalry at this time so the 1796 Pattern H.C. Troopers sword and the H.C. Officers version although I think there is a dress and undress version of the officers type. I don't think the 53rd were designated as Grenadiers until later so if that is correct I would think the officers would have the 1796 Pattern Infantry Officers model and some may have used the 1803 Pattern Flank Officers sword, I don't think the men would have swords en masse but N.C.O's may have had a sword/sidearm. As to the Bengal Army, I would assume the British Officers would carry the appropriate Infantry/Cavalry sword but I'm sure individual exceptions would have been reasonably common throughout the British Army of India. Hope this is of some use. Regards, Norman.

1st July 2009, 03:37 PM	#2
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Superb Norman, it is indeed very helpfull, as I have been re-searching the Anglo Nepali war, and come across a couple of occasions of Gurkha commanders seeking out British Officers and basically having a duel with them. The Gurkha commanders being described as using sabre, so they were probably using either a Tulwar or Shamshir type blade. In another recorded incident the Royal Irish Dragoons over extended themselves, and in the Gorkha counter attack they had real problems dealing with the shield and khukuri combined, with their swords. So I was very keen to fnd out what the British forces were using on those occasions. Many thanks Simon

1st July 2009, 06:54 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	What a fascinating topic Simon! and I hope you'll keep us posted on your findings..in addition to hopefully others will join in on the research and share the information here. Norman has as always, offered sound insight into the most plausibly present edged weapons during this period. I think his note on the use of the M1803 flank company officers sabre for the 53rd would be most likely. The officers in India were much more inclined toward sabres in the Raj, and the M1796 infantry officers sword was already wrought with disdain from the officers who used in in the Peninsula. Dragoons indeed did use the heavy cavalry M1796 swords, and there were undress patterns for officers which if I recall had a pierced bowl type guard, something called a 'honeysuckle' pattern (?) I need to look this up, its been a very long time! I think the data is in 'Robson'. Tulwars were of course well known in Nepal, and I would be reasonably certain the Gurkhas would have had them, especially officers or leaders. The heavy cavalry M1796 patterns were terribly cumbersome, and definitely ill suited in combat against fast moving Gurkhas with kukris!! These swords were huge, unwieldy, and if I recall Robsons words correctly, one of the worst swords ever inflicted on the British army....not exactly a stellar review. I still like them, incredible history!!! but for combat, especially in these circumstances....not good. Now, the best topic of all, swords used by British officers of the Bengal Army. In these times, British officers had already enjoyed extreme latitude in thier fashions including of course, weapons. While in most cases, many of the more rigidly regimented officers would have likely carried the patterns of sword typically in place at the time by regulation. However, in these times, the flamboyance of many officers led to the use of fascinating hybrid forms and native style weapons. I have seen many tulwars carrying M1796 officers blades, and while it is often presumed these were captured blades used by Indian forces, the converse may be true, an officer mounting his blade in a local style hilt. Of course, speculation, but as the Raj progessed, British officers adopted Indian fashion widely, leading to the colorful pageantry of the Native Indian regiments....Bengal Lancers et al!! I look forward to progress with this topic Simon!!! All the best, Jim

2nd July 2009, 12:02 PM	#4
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Many thanks for your input Jim, the current re-search all came about from the previous discussion about Khuda/Khunda. Tulwar seemed to be the main type of sword in that period in Nepal, and with the higher ranked Rajput Nepali there was the occasional Shamshir, obviously other types were in use as well. The problem the Dragoons seemd to have was the Goorkhas ability with the shield to deflect their swords, and the Gurkhas then closing the gap and either cutting them or stabbing them. The Dragoons quickly retreated, expecting support by the Sepoys of the 1/6th, they saw what was happening and ran as well, there ended up being 151 casualties, of which twelve died of their wounds or were killed outright. That is very interesting what you say about the hilts, and it wouldn't surprise me if an eccentric BO did just that! I must now go and find some 1796 heavy cavalry swords to see how they perform, I am hoping a local collector I know has a couple. Thanks for all you help, cheers Simon