An (other) hand cannon ... with marks

Spiridonov · 28th June 2009, 04:02 PM

OOO! Looks great! I like short early handgonnes

Matchlock · 28th June 2009, 04:48 PM

Well done, Fernando,

The marks seem to me like a stylized (dotted) cross which is quite commonly found on 15th century short barrels.

Best,
Michael

fernando · 28th June 2009, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Well done, Fernando ...

Thank you Michael. You know that a compliment coming from you in this area works like a tonic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... The marks seem to me like a stylized (dotted) cross which is quite commonly found on 15th century short barrels...

Good ... very good

. Seller had it dated XVIII century, but even i knew he was wrong by far.
Thanks again
Fernando

Philip · 29th June 2009, 11:29 PM

Congratulations, Fernando! Finding an example that is clearly marked is a bonus. I also like the way that the maker designed and made this thing with some thought as to the way it is supposed to fit securely into the stock. Looks great in the reproduction wood "tiller" that you had made -- some tool marks on the wood (see the two examples with stocks in Howard L. Blackmore's book), some stain and linseed oil rub to the surface, and a hammered iron barrel band or two and you're all set to go!

It's amazing that you have managed to snag several of these early gonnes in the Iberian peninsula within so short a time -- these weapons aren't exactly common. Keep up the good work!

Jim McDougall · 30th June 2009, 05:42 AM

Fantastic piece Fernando! What great workmanship in recreating that stock also, looks perfect in it. You are really doing great in acquisitions my friend.

Michael, as always you know me and my curiosity on markings. Can you say more on the stylized cross, was it just on firearms, and was it typically used in Spain or in other European arms?

Philip, its great to have you here!!! I always look forward to your input, and your scope of knowledge seems to have no bounds.

All the best,
Jim

Matchlock · 30th June 2009, 01:40 PM

Hi Jim,

By experience, and gainst the background of Christianity, I should say that the cross symbol has been quite common to a lot of European (including Portuguese and Spanish) ironwork and also to blades. One main reason may have been that the bearer was hoping to be protected from evil - either the gun exploding or an attacking enemy. In the South German and alpine regions it is often found as part of an orb and cross, as you will remember well from many blade marks. I have come to interpret this combination as a symbol of the Holy Roman Empire, both religious and political.

I include images of two heavy Late Gothic wrought iron barrels in my collection, each ca. 35 cm long; one of them is struck with a group of three circles and illegible stylized letters (date?!) surmounted by a cross.

The other shows a cudely incised cross symbol right before the raised brim of the touch hole moulding.

Best,
Michael

fernando · 30th June 2009, 07:54 PM

Thank you for your kind words, Philip.
I have worked again on the wood, to make it look more rustic. I find linseed oil a bit sticky; i guess i will use the old traditional vieux chaine, as i did with the previous one.
The smith is already booked for a session tomorrow , to make a couple hammered iron bands for the thing.
Fernando

fernando · 30th June 2009, 10:40 PM

Hi Michael, thank you for the input

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... hoping to be protected from evil - either the gun exploding or an attacking enemy...

It is amazing how people non initiated in early firearms history seem not to believe that the risk of guns exploding in the gunners faces was extremely high. I have read in more that one source that many a times gunners were selected among convicted guys

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

...I include images of two heavy Late Gothic wrought iron barrels in my collection, each ca. 35 cm long; one of them is struck with a group of three circles and illegible stylized letters (date?!) surmounted by a cross.
The other shows a cudely incised cross symbol right before the raised brim of the touch hole moulding ...

Fascinating. I had already noticed the circles in that cannon of yours, but haven't discerned the cross.
That beats by far the humble mark in my example

Fernando

fernando · 30th June 2009, 10:28 PM

Hi Jim,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Fantastic piece Fernando! What great workmanship in recreating that stock also, looks perfect in it. You are really doing great in acquisitions my friend ...

What can i say?

Fernando

fernando · 28th June 2009, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiridonov

OOO! Looks great! I like short early handgonnes

Thank you Spiridonov ; i am starting to like them also. Amazing thing, less than a year ago i didn't even know they existed

.
Fernando

30th June 2009, 01:40 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Jim, By experience, and gainst the background of Christianity, I should say that the cross symbol has been quite common to a lot of European (including Portuguese and Spanish) ironwork and also to blades. One main reason may have been that the bearer was hoping to be protected from evil - either the gun exploding or an attacking enemy. In the South German and alpine regions it is often found as part of an orb and cross, as you will remember well from many blade marks. I have come to interpret this combination as a symbol of the Holy Roman Empire, both religious and political. I include images of two heavy Late Gothic wrought iron barrels in my collection, each ca. 35 cm long; one of them is struck with a group of three circles and illegible stylized letters (date?!) surmounted by a cross. The other shows a cudely incised cross symbol right before the raised brim of the touch hole moulding. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 30th June 2009 at 08:07 PM.

28th June 2009, 04:02 PM	#1
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	OOO! Looks great! I like short early handgonnes

28th June 2009, 04:48 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Well done, Fernando, The marks seem to me like a stylized (dotted) cross which is quite commonly found on 15th century short barrels. Best, Michael

29th June 2009, 11:29 PM	#4
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Congratulations, Fernando! Finding an example that is clearly marked is a bonus. I also like the way that the maker designed and made this thing with some thought as to the way it is supposed to fit securely into the stock. Looks great in the reproduction wood "tiller" that you had made -- some tool marks on the wood (see the two examples with stocks in Howard L. Blackmore's book), some stain and linseed oil rub to the surface, and a hammered iron barrel band or two and you're all set to go! It's amazing that you have managed to snag several of these early gonnes in the Iberian peninsula within so short a time -- these weapons aren't exactly common. Keep up the good work!

30th June 2009, 05:42 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Fantastic piece Fernando! What great workmanship in recreating that stock also, looks perfect in it. You are really doing great in acquisitions my friend. Michael, as always you know me and my curiosity on markings. Can you say more on the stylized cross, was it just on firearms, and was it typically used in Spain or in other European arms? Philip, its great to have you here!!! I always look forward to your input, and your scope of knowledge seems to have no bounds. All the best, Jim

30th June 2009, 07:54 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you for your kind words, Philip. I have worked again on the wood, to make it look more rustic. I find linseed oil a bit sticky; i guess i will use the old traditional vieux chaine, as i did with the previous one. The smith is already booked for a session tomorrow , to make a couple hammered iron bands for the thing. Fernando